DS9's episodes were unwatchable by the time of "The Emperor's New Cloak."
What are your controversial Star Trek opinions?
- Thread starter Amasov
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ENT was the only show to do the Mirror Universe well -- or at least the sum of all Darkly's parts is much greater than it has any right to be. I've always Mirror, Mirror" to be really overrated -- probably TOS's most overrated episode. All of DS9's episodes are all pretty stupid, and Disco is just 
.
As far as Voyager, the fundamental problem was that it completely abandoned all the potential conflict and dramatic bite inherent to its premise by the end of the second episode. And the first two seasons, the show did still take some chances. In fact, I'd argue season two was probably the most ambitious of the entire Berman era. That doesn't mean it was any good, as most of the results are more infamous than anything, but at least they were willing to step out of their comfort zone and try something different. And no, DS9 never did this. Despite all the ovation floated towards Blue Beard, DS9 was still Berman Trek though and through.
But by the middle of season three, the show started to become derivative and complacent. By the end of season four, it and become completely bland and stale and, most importantly, utterly forgettable. Of those episodes listed above, the only one I recognized was Tinker Doc, and that's really only because of it's name (and I supposed its absurd premise). The others I'm completely drawing a blank, even after reading their Memory Alpha pages. Though I do have a vague recollection of DDK being in an episode of Voyager. And these are episodes I know I've seen at least three times. Probably four. Pathfinder I only remember because of Barclay and I don't like Barclay. TBF, while I do think he's not a very good character (As he's yet another example of a Trek idea that could have been pretty great had it been handled with more mature hands.), I mostly don't like him because Dwight Schultz can go fuck the right off.
.As far as Voyager, the fundamental problem was that it completely abandoned all the potential conflict and dramatic bite inherent to its premise by the end of the second episode. And the first two seasons, the show did still take some chances. In fact, I'd argue season two was probably the most ambitious of the entire Berman era. That doesn't mean it was any good, as most of the results are more infamous than anything, but at least they were willing to step out of their comfort zone and try something different. And no, DS9 never did this. Despite all the ovation floated towards Blue Beard, DS9 was still Berman Trek though and through.
But by the middle of season three, the show started to become derivative and complacent. By the end of season four, it and become completely bland and stale and, most importantly, utterly forgettable. Of those episodes listed above, the only one I recognized was Tinker Doc, and that's really only because of it's name (and I supposed its absurd premise). The others I'm completely drawing a blank, even after reading their Memory Alpha pages. Though I do have a vague recollection of DDK being in an episode of Voyager. And these are episodes I know I've seen at least three times. Probably four. Pathfinder I only remember because of Barclay and I don't like Barclay. TBF, while I do think he's not a very good character (As he's yet another example of a Trek idea that could have been pretty great had it been handled with more mature hands.), I mostly don't like him because Dwight Schultz can go fuck the right off.
Of the three most popular and critically acclaimed skiffy shows of the era, two were fronted by women and the third had a female co-lead who received all the acclaim and was generally regarded as the real driving force of the show. So, yeah. let's go with that.
Mirror Universe is amazing and Discovery's portrayal is one of the best since the comic run set after Star Trek III. Discovery captures the idea of the Mirror universe from Mirror Mirror quite well.
The basic problem with the Mirror Universe is that it's a one-trick pony. "What if Our Heroes, But Evil Fascists?" only has a couple of variations on it before it gets old. DIS figured out a nice twist on it in S1 by introducing Mirror-Georgiou, but that was a variation that can only work once. After "Terra Firma," they've pretty much run out of new things to do.
That's why I love The Sorrows of Empire and Rise Like Lions so much -- they complicate the Mirror Universe beyond "Our Heroes But Fascists" and tells an interesting new story about how a society rejects fascism and, slowly, haltingly embraces democracy.
That's why I love The Sorrows of Empire and Rise Like Lions so much -- they complicate the Mirror Universe beyond "Our Heroes But Fascists" and tells an interesting new story about how a society rejects fascism and, slowly, haltingly embraces democracy.
To be fair, DS9's take was also "What if Our Heroes, But Renegade Resistance Fighters?"
One thing I liked about Mirror Miles O'Brien is while he's hardened and cynical from years of slave labor on Terok Nor he's essentially a good person who only wants to see his fellow Terrans as well as himself lead happier lives with hope. They could have gone the whole way and made him a complete sociopath but I found him a lot more interesting because he's basically our Miles, just after a lifetime of being treated like a third-class citizen.
Both O'Briens suffered.
Both O'Briens suffered.
Yeah, but I find that more interesting.
I don't think they need it to be new is more my thing. Georgiou is a great example of showcasing the possible implications and exploring what some of the comics did from time to time. The point of the Mirror universe isn't to be all original; it's to literally look at our heroes but fascists, and echo Kirk's sentiment in another episode; "We are killers but we're not going to kill today." Spock remarks that Mirror humans were the "flower of humanity" illustrating this idea further, that we are not so distant as we like to think we are from our savage past.
They were renegade resistance fighters by a twist of fate. If the Terran Empire had stood instead of fallen, Sisko would probably have Kira and Dax as personal slaves, Bashir would be a smug thug, and Colm Meaney would have another opportunity to play Nasty O'Brien (seen in Power Play, Paradise Lost, and the movie Under Siege).
Maybe the K/C Alliance and the Terran Rebellion will wipe each other out and the Ferengi will take over... most of them seemed pretty decent.
A twist of fate is the entire premise of the Mirror Universe. If a Federation had formed instead of a Terran Empire they would've been the characters from the Prime Universe.
Yeah, I definitely wanted more evil Odo.
Intendant Kira was the best renegade resistance fighter.
She was the best thing about the DS9 mirror universe.
Dax was great, too. Shame Farrell didn't reprise her role in Emperor's New Cloak.
Alright it seems like it's come to this: DS9 characters vs Voyager characters. So the obvious matchups are:
Sisko vs Janeway
Kira vs Chakotay
O'Brien vs B'Elanna
Odo vs Tuvok
Quark vs Neelix
Bashir vs The Doctor
Jadzia vs Kim
Worf vs Seven
Ezri vs Kes
Uh, Jake vs Paris
I didn't have to think too hard to pick Kira and Quark, and to be honest I'm leaning towards DS9 with most of the others as well. Though I might pick Seven over Worf (DS9 Edition). Maybe I should've put Jake up against Seven as she's kind of like Janeway's adopted daughter.
Can we at least agree that Garak is better than Seska?
Sisko vs Janeway
Kira vs Chakotay
O'Brien vs B'Elanna
Odo vs Tuvok
Quark vs Neelix
Bashir vs The Doctor
Jadzia vs Kim
Worf vs Seven
Ezri vs Kes
Uh, Jake vs Paris
I didn't have to think too hard to pick Kira and Quark, and to be honest I'm leaning towards DS9 with most of the others as well. Though I might pick Seven over Worf (DS9 Edition). Maybe I should've put Jake up against Seven as she's kind of like Janeway's adopted daughter.
Can we at least agree that Garak is better than Seska?
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