Back further, come to think of it. "Cold Front" established the NX-01 should have been destroyed in 2151. Sooooooo...
Spoilers Is Star Trek Picard In An Alternate Universe?
- Thread starter James Wyatt
- Start date
Even the ENT writers gave up on the Temporal War, so if they couldn't be bothered, neither should we. Disregard anything Daniels said.
In DSC, they said time travel was banned after the Temporal War. So even in-universe, they all said, "The Hell with it!"
In DSC, they said time travel was banned after the Temporal War. So even in-universe, they all said, "The Hell with it!"
I was going to say 'Everything after Data went back to 1893' but you've got me beaten there.
Star Trek: Nemesis and These are the Voyages... have a few issues, but I'm glad they were around at the time to pretty much confirm that all the time weirdness in Enterprise results in the timeline we know. Even if it's not the one Daniels knows.
Which must mean Archer wasn't supposed to be the NX-01's Captain, since his removal from the 22nd century a few months later results in the extinction of humanity and destruction of the Federation.
The difference is that in these examples, something artificial happened to create these alternate universes, and the prevailing idea was that they weren't supposed to happen that way and that they needed to be 'righted.' Not so in Endgame. The timeline was just fine until Admiral Janeway took it upon herself to change it.
Yes, it is a fantastic discussion
The issue here is, what universe did Daniels originally come from? Obviously not the Prime universe, because his history notes that the Expanse grew from the 22nd century onward to encompass the entire Alpha Quadrant by the 26th century, which it does not do in the Prime universe.
I think the question of future Admiral Janeway's meddling is kind of moot. The end result is the timeline that "we" ended up with, and the 29th century time cops didn't jump in and put the kibosh on the whole thing (which is something that could plausibly happen, as Voyager itself established). So post-Endgame is now "our" universe.
Kor
I don't think 29th century time cops have any business interfering with time travel that happened long before their time. It already happened, it's in the past!
Unless it's the series' present timeframe, I disregard it. "All Good Things", "The Visitor", "Timeless", and "Endgame" didn't show the "real", canon version of Star Trek's turn of the 25th Century. Picard does. The futures in those other episodes were only portrayed as possible futures.
I make an exception for the 29th Century shown in Voyager. They treated it as if it wasn't just a possible version but the Canon Version. So that would make it Voyager's future and Discovery's past.
The Time Wars with Daniels in the 31st Century? I don't think even Manny Coto or Michelle Paradise know what to do with that mess they inherited from what UPN mandated B&B write. (Yes, UPN is the one to blame here) So they glossed it over the first chance they got in their respective series.
I make an exception for the 29th Century shown in Voyager. They treated it as if it wasn't just a possible version but the Canon Version. So that would make it Voyager's future and Discovery's past.
The Time Wars with Daniels in the 31st Century? I don't think even Manny Coto or Michelle Paradise know what to do with that mess they inherited from what UPN mandated B&B write. (Yes, UPN is the one to blame here) So they glossed it over the first chance they got in their respective series.
It established nothing of the kind.
Daniels may have claimed as such, but who's to say Daniels' history is the real one? Think about it.
As I mentioned above, I would argue that "Endgame" did in fact show the real canon version of the 25th century until Admiral Janeway erased it. PIC now shows the result of what Janeway did, just as the OP stated.
^ If it's been erased, then by definition it's not real.
They were entirely real until they weren't! Except for maybe All Good Things' future, there's a high chance that was just Q messing around.
Picard (in "A Matter of Time"): "I don't give a damn about your past because your past is my future and as far as I'm concerned, it hasn't been written yet."
I stand by what I said. Unless it's the present time of the series (or film), it doesn't count. Especially if the writers had that future changed in the very same episode. That means they never intended for that future to happen.
Make a show or a film about it, and I'll consider it the canon version. Otherwise, no.
I stand by what I said. Unless it's the present time of the series (or film), it doesn't count. Especially if the writers had that future changed in the very same episode. That means they never intended for that future to happen.
Make a show or a film about it, and I'll consider it the canon version. Otherwise, no.
But the prime universe temporarily got erased in "Yesterday's Enterprise," and then was brought back. So that logic really doesn't count. Not to mention that the Abrams films showed that creating a new timeline doesn't necessarily erase the old one. You now just have two concurrently running timelines, both just as 'real.' And perhaps that's why nobody blinked an eye at the fact that Janeway was going back and erasing their existence in 2404, because they all knew that their own timeline wouldn't be affected. Basically, Janeway did what Spock & Nero did.
I get what their intent was. I'm saying that the future as depicted in Endgame was actually the unchanged prime universe future until Janeway changed it. What's happening now is, for all intents and purposes, the 'prime' universe, but a prime universe that was changed from a former prime universe.
Last edited:
Braxton mentioned the events of Timeless as one of the many temporal incidents Voyager was involved in that he had to deal with.
I just checked through the script and he does say that. He mentions three violations he had to repair, but it doesn't seem like he repaired them by restoring the previous timeline because Timeless still happened. As far as I can tell the time cops leave the actual time travel alone and then repair something else afterwards. Maybe damage to 'temporal subspace' or some other technobabble, I haven't read the whole script.
Almost all fiction involves data which can be checked and falsified in the real world and so it happens in an alternate universe than the real world. Thus almost all fiction ihappens in a multiverse which includes at least two alternate universes, the universe of the fiction and the real world.
It is very hard to come up with a theory that explains why there are only two alternate universes. It would be much more plausible to imagine that countless alternate universes diverge every seond.
So most fiction should happen in a multiverse where many alternate universes diverge every second.
Furthermore, the Mirror Universe episodes seem to be examples of alternate universes within the multiverse that includes Star Trek. So Star Trek should happen in a multiverse with many alternate universes.
The TNG episode "Parallels" involves thousands of alternate universes. So obviously there are many thousands (or millions) of alternate universes in which Star Trek characters serve on the starships and space stations they serve on in various productions.
There is no reason to arbitarily assume that every episode of a specific tv series or movie series happens in the same alternate universe as all the others. And if it is a science fiction series which features examples of alternate universes, it seems rather perverse to insist that all episodes and movies happen one after another in the same alternate universe.
It is very hard to come up with a theory that explains why there are only two alternate universes. It would be much more plausible to imagine that countless alternate universes diverge every seond.
So most fiction should happen in a multiverse where many alternate universes diverge every second.
Furthermore, the Mirror Universe episodes seem to be examples of alternate universes within the multiverse that includes Star Trek. So Star Trek should happen in a multiverse with many alternate universes.
The TNG episode "Parallels" involves thousands of alternate universes. So obviously there are many thousands (or millions) of alternate universes in which Star Trek characters serve on the starships and space stations they serve on in various productions.
There is no reason to arbitarily assume that every episode of a specific tv series or movie series happens in the same alternate universe as all the others. And if it is a science fiction series which features examples of alternate universes, it seems rather perverse to insist that all episodes and movies happen one after another in the same alternate universe.
Similar threads
- Locked
