Are fans actually usually right?

[Grendelsbayne]

Being a fan certainly helps. It’s a reason why shows like Mandalorian have a better reception than the sequel movies. The people behind them are fans and know what works and what doesn’t.

In addition to being factually wrong, this is completely twisted logic. A fan making a good show in no way proves the show was good *because* the creator was a fan. The director of Star Trek Nemesis was a huge fan, too. And the guy who made the most famous/celebrated Trek movie in existence very emphatically wasn't a fan at all.

 

[The Wormhole]

The director of Star Trek Nemesis was a huge fan, too.

Writer actually. John Logan was a huge Trek fan. The director of Nemesis, Stuart Baird was infamously not knowledgeable of Trek at all to the point he actually argued with LeVar Burton on set that Geordi is supposed to be an alien.

 

[JD]

The thing that bugs me with Baird is that he got that far into it, and apparently still hadn't bothered to do even the most basic research. You'd think the first thing a person who got hired to work on a franchise they weren't familiar with would do is familiarize themselves with the franchise. It was 2002, so I'm pretty sure by that point TNG would have been on DVD, and even if he couldn't get ahold of it that way, I'm sure Paramount could have found a way for him to see it. Hell, even back then it wouldn't have been that hard to find stuff about it online.

 

[Ray Hardgrit]

Yeah, Nicholas Meyer and Stuart Baird were both unfamiliar with the series. I think the difference between the two of them was that Meyer cared enough to do the research, while Baird is a fantastic editor who'd directed two movies and resented the fact that he'd been handed Nemesis as his third.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

Writer actually. John Logan was a huge Trek fan. The director of Nemesis, Stuart Baird was infamously not knowledgeable of Trek at all to the point he actually argued with LeVar Burton on set that Geordi is supposed to be an alien.

Writer, yes. Thanks for the reminder.

 

[MacLeod]

Isn't half the issue is that fans as a whole can't always agree on what particular aspects of whatever they are a fan of like, some will like X about it others Y and so on. So you are creating something new based on an existing franchise to what set of fans do you appeal? Do you try and create something to bring new fans in that might alienate existing fans? It's not always easy to strike the balance.

 

[Ovation]

Fans (and more casual listeners, readers, viewers, etc.) are owed nothing but the experience of the thing (book, music, film/TV show, etc.). That’s it. They’re NOT owed satisfaction or a priori consideration of their “feelings” or expectations. IF they receive any of those things, that’s great. But they are NOT entitled to any of those things.

 

[Ray Hardgrit]

Yeah, you can never promise satisfaction to every fan, as fanbases are too diverse and even people with a common interest don't necessarily share the same taste. A movie is considered to be a massive success with the critics if only 10% of reviewers on Rotten Tomaotes tell people to skip it.

That said, if someone goes into creating an adaptation or something in a franchise with the attitude that fans aren't entitled to feel satisfied, then they'd better hope that someone else is satisfied. Sometimes it works out and you get something like the Starship Troopers movie, which inverts the message of the novel it's based on, but I've noticed that stories told with respect and an understanding of the audience they're aimed at usually get a lot more love in return.

 

[fireproof78]

Fans (and more casual listeners, readers, viewers, etc.) are owed nothing but the experience of the thing (book, music, film/TV show, etc.). That’s it. They’re NOT owed satisfaction or a priori consideration of their “feelings” or expectations. IF they receive any of those things, that’s great. But they are NOT entitled to any of those things.

Exactly so. Often times there is the expression of expectation of satisfaction because of longevity of being a fan. But, that was never a part of the original film experience. That fans put such investment in to details and the fictional world was a byproduct, not a demand of continuous satisfaction of those feelings. The experience is all that is owed, nothing more and nothing less.

but I've noticed that stories told with respect and an understanding of the audience they're aimed at usually get a lot more love in return.

And that's fine, but that's not a demand or an expectation. "Respect" is just as nebulous a term as what fans want and it's not something is reasonable to expect. Starship Troopers ended up as enjoyed by some, but for me, who enjoys the original book and the lessons on leadership, it's a lesser adaptation, to say nothing of the sequels. However, as films by themselves they have their own interesting world development. I don't love them as much as the book but I do appreciate them as a different thing.

 

[Ray Hardgrit]

Starship Troopers ended up as enjoyed by some, but for me, who enjoys the original book and the lessons on leadership, it's a lesser adaptation.

That's what I'm saying. Starship Troopers was a film that apparently didn't give a damn about satisfying the existing fans, so I'm not surprised you weren't satisfied. I'd consider it a success as it did get (belated) critical acclaim for what it's doing, but it's not necessarily a movie for Starship Trooper novel fans unless they like their books subverted

 

[fireproof78]

That's what I'm saying. Starship Troopers was a film that apparently didn't give a damn about satisfying the existing fans, so I'm not surprised you weren't satisfied. I'd consider it a success as it did get (belated) critical acclaim for what it's doing, but it's not necessarily a movie for Starship Trooper novel fans unless they like their books subverted

Or, if they are willing to engage the film outside of the book parameters, which is what I have learned to do. I get a small measure of satisfaction with the film, but largely from a production design standpoint. It isn't an enjoyable story for me, even if I wasn't a fan of the book.

I'd consider it a success as well.

 

[STEPhon IT]

Yeah, Nicholas Meyer and Stuart Baird were both unfamiliar with the series. I think the difference between the two of them was that Meyer cared enough to do the research, while Baird is a fantastic editor who'd directed two movies and resented the fact that he'd been handed Nemesis as his third.

FYI directing a movie is an opportunity most filmmakers would be honored and thrilled to do, but to get a shot, not 1, not 2, but 3 shots to direct a feature is winning the lottery of a lifetime for a filmmaker. Resentment is something fans conjure up to hyperbole their clouded opinions on the mindset of a Hollywood film director where aforementioned movie he/she didn't like.

 

[fireproof78]

Resentment is something fans conjure up to hyperbole their clouded opinions on the mindset of a Hollywood film director where aforementioned movie he/she didn't like.

Indeed. The amount of malice ascribed to production teams is amazing by fans when it largely comes down to creative choices, not personal animus.

 

[shapeshifter]

That's what I'm saying. Starship Troopers was a film that apparently didn't give a damn about satisfying the existing fans, so I'm not surprised you weren't satisfied.

I was not a fan, had never heard if it before but loved the film!

 

[Ray Hardgrit]

FYI directing a movie is an opportunity most filmmakers would be honored and thrilled to do, but to get a shot, not 1, not 2, but 3 shots to direct a feature is winning the lottery of a lifetime for a filmmaker. Resentment is something fans conjure up to hyperbole their clouded opinions on the mindset of a Hollywood film director where aforementioned movie he/she didn't like.

I was pulling that trivia from my memory without double checking my facts so I admit I might be misremembering something I read. Or maybe I'm not, I don't remember. I do know that Baird was promised a high profile directing job in exchange for doing an emergency editing fix on Tomb Raider and Mission: Impossible 2, and the impression I get is that he would've ideally prefered a film without a ton of established lore and actors who already had strong ideas about their characters. 'Resent' may have been too strong a word, but I feel like he assumed he was winning a metaphorical jackpot and then recieved a prize he couldn't get quite as enthusiastic about.

Not that I know what the other possibilties could've been. The Core maybe? The Italian Job remake?

 

[Morpheus 02]

Indeed, fans are not a hivemind. There is no such thing as the fandom. There are individual men and women and there are families. And no fandom can do anything except through people, and people must look after themselves first...

I find it a little strange that so many in this thread are condemning "fans" or "the fandom" as if they are themselves not part of it. It's reminiscent of politicians decrying "the political class" or "the establishment".

Whenever sweeping statements are made about "fans" it's nearly always disparaging. Fans liked an episode you didn't? "Uh, stupid fans'll clap anything!" Fans didn't like an episode you did? "Come on fans, lighten up!".

Perhaps, on some level, it's an attempt to make yourself seem better (or rather, closer to "normal people" or God forbid "the real world") by putting down fandom as a faceless whole. You're not like those other fans. You're one of the good ones. You know your place. It's all an elaborate virtue signal - though to whom they're signalling is not exactly clear.



100% of married men die.

Read through quite a bit, sorry...i am not quoting much...this comment was especially interesting to me. what resonated with me is when people disparage fans, yet they are supposedly/actually one themselves. To me, it's like white progressives who talk bad about racists yet would never

But i digress.

SO when we talk about "fans"... it's like racism... the definition seems elastic and and fits whatever beefits the person saying it. ANd many times it conflates two different groups.

So like Ghostbusters 2016.... there were misogynists who wanted to hat it for the women, who might have added as addition reasoning the same reasons NON-misogyists were concerned/ why thye liekd Afterlife instead. ANd by that, I mean how Afterlife gave (to many) a plausible reason why Ghostbusters weren't around, and 2016 could have used that as a reason why the characters were passionate about it, but yet didn't see any ghosts until adulthood.

To me, fans can either magnify the bad OR the good, which mulitiplies what the success/failure would have been if they didn't speak. So on the positive side, comic and TV fands of the FLash were super excited with what was coming. Even though there were some radical changes from what we had known, the perceived respect of what came before helped us to embrace the new, and helped make the Flash the #1 CW series for a long time.


So Bryan SInger was a self-proclaimed fan of SUperman, and had done 2 great X-Men films. So i was SUPER EXCITED that he was doing a new Superman movie. So i think my expectations for it were way higher than he delivered (which still puzzles me why i didn't like it)



In theory (like a Netflix algorthm), fans (if it is ENOUGH of them, and not simply the loudest/most readical ones) SHOULD be right.... since they liked a specific show or movie for similar reasons...and if it was enough of them to make that property popular... they OUGHT to know.


This also reminds me of sports fans.... who say what is good / bad about a team, and especially which personnel should stay or go.

We have also seen many times when "management" seems clueless about what "reallY" works. I certainly see that as a parent in CHicago Public Schools.

 

[JD]

When it comes to the creative team of an adaption worrying about making the fans happy, I think the best thing they can do is just not worry about. There is absolutely no way to please everyone, so they should just try to do the best job they can, and as long as they don't totally fuck it up, then the majority of fans should be satisfied.

 

[Starbreaker]

Fans are rarely right. If fans had their way, we would be on Season 56 of TOS.

 

[Ray Hardgrit]

Only 42 seasons left before we reach TNG.

 

[Gingerbread Demon]

I'm also wondering if some of this is a sense of entitlement by some fans that things are not too their liking and they feel "owed" that something do it their way?