What do those uniform colors mean, anyway?!

[J.T.B.]

So, I know this isn't really the thread for this but what is poorly executed of this version? Bearing in mind that I have no service experience but have always appreciated the uniforms and their history in the US Armed Forces.

WAY OT:

For one thing a lot of the tailoring looks bad. Coats like that with a fitted waist and a belt don't look good off the rack on a lot of people. This will probably improve over time though as the system adjusts to the new requirements. They went with dark bronze rather than gold buttons, which is not historical and contrasts poorly with the gold color of the collar and cap insignia. The breast pocket flaps are a weird, too-tall shape. They got rid of the edge piping from the garrison cap, which was a nice bit of accent. The enlisted chevrons are not the historical color scheme with dark blue background. But the worst of all is the visor cap. It looks like a cheap Halloween store knock-off of a USAAF crusher cap. I mean, this thing looks like it's a foot tall in the front, it's cartoonish.



I would note that General Milley has had his own cap made with much more traditional styling. He also wears old-school sliver embroidered general's stars.

I do like the return of the full-color shoulder patches, though.

 

[fireproof78]

For one thing a lot of the tailoring looks bad. Coats like that with a fitted waist and a belt don't look good off the rack on a lot of people. This will probably improve over time though as the system adjusts to the new requirements. They went with dark bronze rather than gold buttons, which is not historical and contrasts poorly with the gold color of the collar and cap insignia. The breast pocket flaps are a weird, too-tall shape. They got rid of the edge piping from the garrison cap, which was a nice bit of accent. The enlisted chevrons are not the historical color scheme with dark blue background. But the worst of all is the visor cap. It looks like a cheap Halloween store knock-off of a USAAF crusher cap. I mean, this thing looks like it's a foot tall in the front, it's cartoonish.

Thank you. I did not know all the different little details and had not seen the visor cap which I agree is terrible and looks ill-fitting at best.

Undoubtedly it will be improved upon, and while my poorly informed opinion is limited I do think it was nice to attempt to go back to the Army's history, and create a business work uniform for day to day.

 

[Neopeius]

In the thought exercise of what a viewer in December 1966 would have been able to piece together about what the colors meant, there would have been some strong clues that security guards also wore red; "What Are Little Girls Made Of?" comes to mind. Stronger evidence about security would come along later in season 1 with "Devil in the Dark."

Correct -- it's clear at this point that security wears red, although whether they are Starfleet or Marines or if there be a distinction is not yet. It makes sense, though, that security folks would not be line officers, but they're not exactly "staff" either.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

It makes sense, though, that security folks would not be line officers

Actually it doesn't.

As security personnel are deck/line officers in the RW. The only one of three functions sometimes filled by "security officers" in Starfleet (Security, Armory, Bridge Tactical/Weapons officer) that isn't a "line" (or at least deck, which is mostly the same thing) department is below decks Armory, which is typically Engineering.

 

[Neopeius]

Actually it doesn't.

As security personnel are deck/line officers in the RW. The only one of three functions sometimes filled by "security officers" in Starfleet (Security, Armory, Bridge Tactical/Weapons officer) that isn't a "line" (or at least deck, which is mostly the same thing) department is below decks Armory, which is typically Engineering.

The naval guards that currently (2021) fulfill the role formerly done by MARDETs are line?

 

[Mres_was_framed!]

Interesting idea, I don't think there's anything to it. In TMP the blue color that the ship's top officers wore would be closest to the dungarees of the enlisted navy grades.



In the thought exercise of what a viewer in December 1966 would have been able to piece together about what the colors meant, there would have been some strong clues that security guards also wore red; "What Are Little Girls Made Of?" comes to mind. Stronger evidence about security would come along later in season 1 with "Devil in the Dark."



The term was "pinks and greens" and it was the officer's service uniform. The coat was darker brownish green, the lighter "pink" trousers a kind of grayish-tan or taupe color, which sometimes, to some people, had some rosy tones in it. But this does touch on consensus or agreement on color terms, and how that lines up, or not, with official names.
View attachment 25630

Also, officers' uniforms were privately made; there were not massive stocks of standardized, government contract fabric like there were for enlisted uniforms, so there was also a fairly wide variation in the actual hues. It's not obvious individually, but it can be noticeable when compared side by side.

After WW2 the Army standardized so officers and enlisted wore the same color of "olive drab," then "Army Green" in the '50s, and then within the past couple of years the retro "Army Green Service Uniform," which is an updated (and IMO poorly executed) version of the WW2 pink and greens, but now worn by all grades.



A person's rank and what you actually call them are sometimes two different things. In TOS most officers were called "mister," but it was clearly not their rank. It is still common for "doctor," "nurse" and "chaplain" (or "father" etc as appropriate) to be used regardless of rank, and "captain" of course for a vessel's commanding officer.

The 19th century US Navy titles were somewhat complicated, and changed over the years. The Royal Navy titles were even more complex.

A lot of interesting detail here. Thanks.

I always took it as the job you're doing, regardless of other training. For instance, Scotty is clearly the engineering officer, but he sits in the center seat multiple times, and Sulu and Chekov both defer to him. So he has some line officer experience, regardless of shirt color. Same with Spock, who serves two roles.

This is where it get complicated to me:

Scotty does the job of redshirt, but when taking command, he does not change his shirt. If red was not a "line" color, he would need to do so in that case if the shirt reflected the job, not the training. So we assume that red is a line "color." But Spock stays in blue when he takes command. We have been assuming that blue is not a "line" color. Of course Spock might be an exception, this would argue for that the shirt color is based on training as "line," "engineering" or "staff."

Yet we see background characters Brent and Hadley constantly in different colors based on jobs they are doing. Red when helping security, blue for sciences, and so on. If we are to assume that these background people are supposed to be the same characters doing different jobs, and not separate people, then they must change their shirt for each job, as they are sometimes seen in more than one color per episode.

I again think back to a show I watched where Mike Rowe visited an aircraft carrier and had to change his shirt mover and over again as he tried different jobs so that the other sailors would not be confused by his role. However, I also found the picture of the different sailors in the colors from WWII based on the type of training they had interesting. Looking at TOS, like in the original post, and then at TOS-Nemesis, I wonder which one is reflected more.

 

[J.T.B.]

The naval guards that currently (2021) fulfill the role formerly done by MARDETs are line?

"Line" applies to officers only. Ships are run by line officers, every department except for supply and (if the ship's big enough) medical is staffed with line officers.

Security on a ship is handled by enlisted personnel. Everybody is considered to be able to take part in securing and protecting the ship, with sentry duty etc. rotated around different divisions. There is no department head for internal policing, it's a small group under under the XO. There is a rating of master-at-arms which is the navy's police and security specialty. Most ships have only a few supervisory MAA petty officers, and the rest of the police force is other rates detailed to that duty. On a carrier, the MAA force is big enough to be supervised by an officer, usually a warrant (formerly enlisted).

Marine detachments dated back to a day when ships had a lot of guns that required a lot of people. The marines' battle stations were mostly as gun crews and they had sections of batteries that were assigned to them. When most of the guns went away and they didn't have gunnery practice and maintenance, they had a lot of time on their hands and it got to be kind of a "make work" situation. Even so, tradition dies hard and admirals and captains loved having marines to show off and they stuck around on carriers for another 25 or 30 years. When they finally got rid of the MarDets most carrier sailors would say they weren't missed as far as workload goes, and the ship's company took over all their security functions without much fuss. The functions they had always performed on every other ship that wasn't a fleet carrier, cruiser or battleship.

Scotty does the job of redshirt, but when taking command, he does not change his shirt. If red was not a "line" color, he would need to do so in that case if the shirt reflected the job, not the training. So we assume that red is a line "color." But Spock stays in blue when he takes command. We have been assuming that blue is not a "line" color. Of course Spock might be an exception, this would argue for that the shirt color is based on training as "line," "engineering" or "staff."

It's not a problem if "line" and "non-line" has nothing to do with the uniform color. Line officers could presumably serve in sciences just like the other two divisions, though it may not be as common. Besides Spock, Sulu was working in the science division in WNMHGB but by "Arena" was referred to as "an experienced combat officer."

 

[Neopeius]

"Line" applies to officers only. Ships are run by line officers, every department except for supply and (if the ship's big enough) medical is staffed with line officers.

Seems like the stripeless security redshirts would be the equivalent of enlisted and the stripey ones officers (even though everyone's an officer in Trek at some point).

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

The naval guards that currently (2021) fulfill the role formerly done by MARDETs are line?

Not exactly, as noted by others due to "line" being a commissioned officer term rather than applying to enlisted. However enlisted personnel are grouped in several communities that roughly correspond to the three "uniform colours" that this thread discusses:

US Navy: White/Navy Blue (General Duties/Deck, Technical, Weapons and Admin, known as "Seamen" and Medical, known as Hospitalmen), Red (Engineering and Hull). There are also additional Airman and Constructionman groups that don't have a specific parallel with uniforms (although the SCE likely corresponds to the latter in role).

US Coast Guard: Similar to the above, but grouped as Aviation, Administrative and Sciences (medic, marine science tech, musician, public affairs, storekeeper/quartermaster, mess and admin), General Duties/Deck & Weapons (Boatswain's Mate/Coxswain (helm/navigation, small boat commander), security, armory*, comms/sensors, intel) and Engineering and Hull (damage control, electrical & electronics*, machinery, IT, diver)

* Responsibility for maintenance of weapons systems is shared between Gunner's Mates (who also fire the weapons, part of D & W) and Electronics Technicians (part of Engineering and Hull).

 

[Mres_was_framed!]

Everybody is considered to be able to take part in securing and protecting the ship, with sentry duty etc. rotated around different divisions. There is no department head for internal policing, it's a small group under under the XO.

That sounds like a great way to explain so many background extras being seen in one color while doing a job on the bridge, and then in red on security team--maybe everybody in TOS except medical-only personal were trained to be able to be on a security team, even most/all gold shirt and most sciences blue personnel.

It's not a problem if "line" and "non-line" has nothing to do with the uniform color.

It certainly is not a problem for me, but I was, in line with the original post, trying to re-imagine the 3 shirt colors in a way that it could have been viewed in 1966 and see if any other system than the currently-official one would work. I would love for the line/engineering/staff (for gold/red/blue respectively) system to work for, TOS but then we would have to make explanation for a few exceptions.

With Kirk in blue for much of TMP, and numerous (actually most) commanding officers wearing red in the TNG era, this line/engineer/staff system could explain why red and gold seem to have been flipped in the TNG era without them "really" having to be flipped.

The argument then could also be that Kirk, as an Admiral, has become a "staff" officer, but has been reactivated to "line" in the emergency. Decker could have been acting as "staff" as a Captain until taking his assignment (though in real life off screen I think I remember what happened is that his yellow uniform was stolen.)

Seems like the stripeless security redshirts would be the equivalent of enlisted and the stripey ones officers (even though everyone's an officer in Trek at some point).

Like I said above, maybe this explains seeing various personnel in red but also in some other color.

On that note, if the Enterprise, as originally conceived, is to patrol the Galaxy in addition to exploring, perhaps we could rectify the officer/enlisted issue be suggesting that "officer" in this sense is like "police officer," in terms of type of service, and not like a rank.

White/Navy Blue (General Duties/Deck, Technical, Weapons and Admin, known as "Seamen" and Medical, known as Hospitalmen)...

Earlier when I was referring to TMP matching the Navy this must have been what I was thinking of, since Kirk wears blue in that movie when he is not wearing white.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

There is no department head for internal policing, it's a small group under under the XO. There is a rating of master-at-arms which is the navy's police and security specialty. Most ships have only a few supervisory MAA petty officers, and the rest of the police force is other rates detailed to that duty.

There's no "department head" in the sense of a commissioned officer that has that duty, and chief warrant officers in that community are rare afloat, however most of my research seems to indicate that the minimum manning level for "security chief" is one Chief Petty Officer or Senior Chief (on support vessels and subs), who may be supported by one or more Petty Officers on frigates, destroyers and cruisers, and will have a staff of Petty Officers and rated and unrated Seamen on larger vessels.

 

[Neopeius]

On that note, if the Enterprise, as originally conceived, is to patrol the Galaxy in addition to exploring, perhaps we could rectify the officer/enlisted issue be suggesting that "officer" in this sense is like "police officer," in terms of type of service, and not like a rank.

Maybe, except stripeless people are called Ensigns.

By the way, thank you for diving so deeply into the December 1966 mindset with me!

 

[Kor]

In TOS there wasn't supposed to be that officer/enlisted distinction, at least according to the 1967 writers' guide:

Is the starship U.S.S. Enterprise a military vessel?

Yes, but only semi-military in practice -- omitting features which are heavily authoritarian. For example, we are not aware of "officers" and "enlisted men" categories. ...

Kor

 

[Mres_was_framed!]

In TOS there wasn't supposed to be that officer/enlisted distinction, at least according to the 1967 writers' guide:


Kor

There is always the possibility suggested by Franz Joseph in the tech manual that "enlisted" means the same thing as "ensign" in Starfleet, and thereby satisfies the claim that everyone on a starship is an officer.

It occurs to me that the "dotted" strip for LTJG, which I believe has no corresponding meaning in Navy ranks (Ensign being one full stripe), appears as early as "The Naked Time" which is one of the first to be aired. The first time I watched the series, I don't recall noticing any "no stripe" personnel until later, maybe when Chekov joined the show. In fact, was the term Ensign even used until Chekov joined the show?

If not, then, looking at things as if we were seeing them for the first time without aide of official sources, it would seem that "Ensign" is some kind of term for lower ranking personnel, none of whom were main characters until Chekov was added for "younger audiences."

 

[Kor]

... In fact, was the term Ensign even used until Chekov joined the show?
...

Searching the transcripts on chakoteya.net, it seems that the only time "Ensign" was used in Season 1 was in "Court Martial," to refer to the personnel officer on the Enterprise who testifies, and also to Kirk back when he was assigned to the USS Republic.

Kor

 

[Mres_was_framed!]

Searching the transcripts on chakoteya.net, it seems that the only time "Ensign" was used in Season 1 was in "Court Martial," to refer to the personnel officer on the Enterprise who testifies, and also to Kirk back when he was assigned to the USS Republic.

Kor

I should have remembered Ensign Kirk, but I had no memory about the other officer from that episode. I was never clear on why Yeoman Rand, or at any rate some other Yeoman, would not have been used for that purpose to testify, as it would have given a continuing character some more time to show their respect for Kirk.

On that note, Charlie X would seem to suggest that TOS originally had the idea of a lot of Yeomen (male and female, if we consider the Cage) recording and supporting operations on the ship. With Tina Lauton (sp?) in blue, then maybe yeomen wear the color of the department they support?

 

[Neopeius]

Searching the transcripts on chakoteya.net, it seems that the only time "Ensign" was used in Season 1 was in "Court Martial," to refer to the personnel officer on the Enterprise who testifies, and also to Kirk back when he was assigned to the USS Republic.

Kor

Oh! Well then I'm being anachronistic. I didn't remember Tormolen being a Lt. JG, either, though I assume it's spoken in dialogue.

 

[BK613]

With Tina Lauton (sp?) in blue, then maybe yeomen wear the color of the department they support?

Which would lead to the question, Why is Kirk's yeoman wearing red? Maybe she is pooled from—or a part of—Security?

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

It occurs to me that the "dotted" strip for LTJG, which I believe has no corresponding meaning in Navy ranks (Ensign being one full stripe),

TOS ranks between ENS and CMDR are "naval ranks - full stripe" so ENS lose their one stripe and LT-JG go from one full stripe and one half stripe to a half stripe; LTs drop from 2 full stripes to 1, LT-CMDRs drop from 2 1/2 to 1 1/2, and CMDRs drop from 3 to 2. What doesn't make sense is the TOS CAPT striping, which should following the same pattern be 3 full stripes (down from 4) not 2 1/2.

NB: There is a some precedent for both 3 1/2 stripe "captains" (which logically is what Kirk is during TOS and Pike was at retcon'd into via DSC) in the RW, and for a 1/2 stripe, typically given to either cadets/midshipmen, but occasionally very junior officers (roughly corresponding to US ENS).

 

[Neopeius]

TOS ranks between ENS and CMDR are "naval ranks - full stripe" so ENS lose their one stripe and LT-JG go from one full stripe and one half stripe to a half stripe; LTs drop from 2 full stripes to 1, LT-CMDRs drop from 2 1/2 to 1 1/2, and CMDRs drop from 3 to 2. What doesn't make sense is the TOS CAPT striping, which should following the same pattern be 3 full stripes (down from 4) not 2 1/2.

NB: There is a some precedent for both 3 1/2 stripe "captains" (which logically is what Kirk is during TOS and Pike was at retcon'd into via DSC) in the RW, and for a 1/2 stripe, typically given to either cadets/midshipmen, but occasionally very junior officers (roughly corresponding to US ENS).

What is a 3 1/2 stripe captain in "the real world"?

And by Menagerie, we already have "Fleet Captain Pike" which logically would take the three stripe rank

Thank you for the formula "naval ranks - full stripe" -- that makes so much sense!