These Are The Voyages - a better watch without TNG involved?

[Dukhat]

The only personal changes we see are,

- Trip and T’Pol ended their relationship after the death of Elizabeth, which is understandable

- Shran married Jhamel and has a daughter, which also makes sense

- Most of the crew confiding with Chef, which we have never seen before. Only the crew thanking Chef for a meal when they were in the catwalk in S2, and numerous reference the Chef during the series, suggesting that they did interact with him. But not as a confidant. Although, considering that we never see the crew get therapy upon returning from the Xindi mission and were sent back out after 3 months of shore leave with a couple of returns to Earth within the span of a year, maybe this is what prompted the crew to see Chef in this light.

Outside of that, the personal lives of the crew are indeed static, despite what the entire season suggested about the direction for each of them.



I feel a lot of the dialogue between Troi and Riker could have been rewritten to fit the ENT cast (Treaty of Algeron and the Federation cloaking ban become Treaty of Cheron and all experimental invisibility shields banned for the Romulans while Starfleet decommissions all United Earth ships; Pegasus can refer to a top secret mission carried out by Enterprise where 71 crewmembers lost their life and a mostly empty and lonely ship afterwards; Admiral Pressman becomes Admiral Douglas and swears the surviving crew to secrecy regarding the mission; the member of the crew acknowledging that Chef is the closest thing to a counselor on board; Enterprise will become a museum ship; Riker living with the guilt of the Pegasus for 12 years becomes Shran knows his associates for 12 years) and the rest of the plot remains in tact.

Alternatively, the episode would have been a decent sequel to “The Pegasus”, dealing with the immediate aftermath of those events.

Either direction would have led to a more respectable finale. The solution chosen was more in the middle.

The inherent problem with all that, though, is that the only reason why we had that story in the first place was because Berman & Braga were so insistent on bringing Riker & Troi into the finale and shoehorning 'The Pegasus' framing episode into it without really thinking it through. Had, say, Manny Coto or someone else who didn't have a hardon for TNG, Frakes, or Sirtis, and actually wanted to write a story dealing with the actual characters of the show (and not holograms) was in charge, the script would have been completely different.

 

[FederationHistorian]

The inherent problem with all that, though, is that the only reason why we had that story in the first place was because Berman & Braga were so insistent on bringing Riker & Troi into the finale and shoehorning 'The Pegasus' framing episode into it without really thinking it through. Had, say, Manny Coto or someone else who didn't have a hardon for TNG, Frakes, or Sirtis, and actually wanted to write a story dealing with the actual characters of the show (and not holograms) was in charge, the script would have been completely different.

And yet, if Riker and Troi were going to be in the finale, and the NX-01 crew were still going to be holograms, why not have Riker and Troi in a situation that requires the minds and experiences of the NX-01 crew circa 2155? And they give the holographic versions of the NX-01 crew mobile emitters to move around the ship.

Sounds a lot better than what was produced, and still leaves the rest of the crew’s time on Enterprise a mystery and open ended. So many different endings to ENT have been thought up that it should be its own show on Paramount+ already, as a type of reality game show.

B&B weren’t thinking finale for Enterprise. They were thinking finale of the Star Trek franchise and Enterprise just so happened to be the canvas for it. And that the finale would allow for the show to be revived at some point, similar to what they did with S3's finale. But Moonves wasn't having it this time.

 

[Dukhat]

And yet, if Riker and Troi were going to be in the finale, and the NX-01 crew were still going to be holograms, why not have Riker and Troi in a situation that requires the minds and experiences of the NX-01 crew circa 2155?

I once came up with that very idea for the finale, which took place immediately after Nemesis, with Riker & Troi on the Titan in orbit of Romulus to negotiate a peace treaty, when the Romulans give Riker a recording buoy/black box from the wreckage of the NX-01 from 200 years before. With 24th century technology they are able to convert the data into hologrammatic form so that RIker & Troi can watch a recreation of the last moments of the NX-01 crew during the Romulan war. But they would be strictly observers, not participating in any way, and the holodeck program would essentially be the reality of what happened to the crew. They would come to find out that survivors of the NX-01 stayed on Romulus and interbred with the natives, so by 2379 there were descendants of the crew living on Romulus.

 

[FederationHistorian]

Now that I think about it, did they give Trip a tradition Starfleet funeral or was he buried on Earth? Since a Starfleet burial would provide sufficient cover for the fact that he isn’t dead. K’Eheylar did get transported via a class 8 probe because she was special envoy/emissary. Trip didn’t have a death scene like other Star Trek characters onscreen; he had a dying scene. Very different

Even without reading the books, there is sufficient evidence to suggest that Trip did not die in the finale. Meaning ENT’s story can continue with the entire cast.

 

[Dukhat]

Even without reading the books, there is sufficient evidence to suggest that Trip did not die in the finale. Meaning ENT’s story can continue with the entire cast.

But that's not going to happen, because the present people in charge of Star Trek have moved on from that, not to mention the actors who played those parts.

Trip is dead, and he's going to stay that way. Shatner has a better chance of returning than Trinner does, and that's not going to happen either.

 

[Oddish]

Trip is dead, and he's going to stay that way. Shatner has a better chance of returning than Trinner does, and that's not going to happen either.

In the books, Kirk was resurrected by the Borg almost before his corpse had cooled off. I think William Shatner co-wrote that one.

 

[Reanok]

Yes Willam Shatner wrote that book along with co writers Garth and Judith Reeves-Stevens who did several of the season 4 shows from Enterprise too.

 

[Ryan Thomas Riddle]

This episode is such a mess that even removing the TNG elements doesn't make it any better.

 

[STEPhon IT]

This episode is such a mess that even removing the TNG elements doesn't make it any better.

Agreed, since its a pocket episode from an episode of TNG; it's difficult to remove the main character which the episode was focused on.

 

[Oddish]

This episode is such a mess that even removing the TNG elements doesn't make it any better.

The TNG elements aren't the main problem. Ergo, removing them doesn't solve it.

 

[Reanok]

The show is a turkey it's terrible nothing is going to make it better after all these years.

 

[Oddish]

I agree, it was a large steaming dog turd.

If it hadn't been the series finale, it could have been salvaged into decent fan service ("Cool! It's Riker and Troi!"). But it was.

 

[FederationHistorian]

But that's not going to happen, because the present people in charge of Star Trek have moved on from that, not to mention the actors who played those parts.

Shame that those in charge dropped the open submission policy for Enterprise. I’m sure that there are quite a few fan scripts out there that could give the cast a more fitting sendoff than TATV. I don’t fault the actors for moving on. How much longer are they supposed to wait until they are brought back? TPTB are even letting a followup or coda on DS9 get away from them too.

If it hadn't been the series finale, it could have been salvaged into decent fan service ("Cool! It's Riker and Troi!"). But it was.

Riker and Troi should have been in their First Contact uniforms to begin with. Then adapting the Pegasus script for ENT would have started falling into place, since it would be set at least during the TNG movie era, if not right after Nemesis. And the attempt at fan service would have worked.

The finale had to be a rib on all involved.

 

[Dukhat]

How much longer are they supposed to wait until they are brought back?

They weren't waiting. After TATV, the show was over. And Star Trek as a whole was effectively dead until Abrams made his movies. ENT was just a job; they all moved on to other things.

And they're still not waiting. None of them have any intention of coming back, and CBS has no intention of reviving ENT in any way, shape or form. DSC is the best sequel we're ever going to get for ENT.

 

[FederationHistorian]

They weren't waiting. After TATV, the show was over. And Star Trek as a whole was effectively dead until Abrams made his movies. ENT was just a job; they all moved on to other things.

And they're still not waiting. None of them have any intention of coming back, and CBS has no intention of reviving ENT in any way, shape or form. DSC is the best sequel we're ever going to get for ENT.

I wasn’t talking about 2005. I’m talking about more recently, in that they are open to come back and have said so in the past few years. But they are skeptical of ever getting back together again. And its probably dependent on if playing those characters again would be exciting, and not just getting a miniseries.

That there was no sendoff from any member of the ENT cast to the DIS cast, despite it being a Trek tradition just justifies that skepticism.

 

[Dukhat]

I was recently at a convention that Anthony Montgomery was attending. During the Q&A session, someone asked him if there are any plans to bring the ENT cast back. He made it very clear that there are none and CBS has moved on from them. I have no reason to doubt his word.

 

[suarezguy]

The inherent problem with all that, though, is that the only reason why we had that story in the first place was because Berman & Braga were so insistent on bringing Riker & Troi into the finale and shoehorning 'The Pegasus' framing episode into it without really thinking it through. Had, say, Manny Coto or someone else who didn't have a hardon for TNG, Frakes, or Sirtis, and actually wanted to write a story dealing with the actual characters of the show (and not holograms) was in charge, the script would have been completely different.

This episode is such a mess that even removing the TNG elements doesn't make it any better.

The show is a turkey it's terrible nothing is going to make it better after all these years.

I don't think TAtV was that much worse than "Terra Prime". Any finale that didn't unite Trip and T'Pol and/or was weirdly set 6 years further would be, at best, pretty polarizing to viewers.

 

[Dukhat]

I don't think TAtV was that much worse than "Terra Prime". Any finale that didn't unite Trip and T'Pol and/or was weirdly set 6 years further would be, at best, pretty polarizing to viewers.

As many people have mentioned in the past, TATV would have probably been fine as a regular ENT episode (not the series finale) and if they hadn’t killed off Trip in the stupidest way possible.

 

[Oddish]

The changes I'd make...
1. Make it midseason.
2. Set it in 2155, so no speech subplot.
3. Make the kid Shran's niece.
4. Trip survives.

 

[FederationHistorian]

Any finale that didn't unite Trip and T'Pol and/or was weirdly set 6 years further would be, at best, pretty polarizing to viewers.

So, either Trip and T’Pol are united and together in 2155, Trip and T’Pol are united and together in 2161, or its set in 2161 but Trip and T’Pol are not united and together.

The stage was set for Trip and T’Pol to be united. The whole of S4 was the setup. It doesn’t matter if its in 2155 or 2161. It was already built up, including in the episode preceding it “Terra Prime”. Its probably why the finale has left such a bad taste for all these years. Trip death might have been tolerable if they were a thing for the previous six years, instead of T’Pol being asked if she missed him. And if they aren’t together in 2161, then at least focus on the founding of the Federation and mention a bit of the Romulan war in passing. Even if the crew were stranded on a rock for four years and missed the war, its still an answer. Did the Xindi crisis change the timeline that much that there was no Romulan War experienced by anyone?

Instead, it about understanding about following orders, when Riker could have uploaded a program about breaking the warp 2 barrier or the events surrounding Charles the cogenitor to understand about following orders and accomplished the same goal. Or the role of Starfleet personnel in the Khitomer Conspiracy, as it’s a more recent example for Riker.

“Terra Prime” is the real valentine to the fans. And TATV is a poor clone of “Terra Prime” that at best, acts like S4 did not happen. And at worst, treats the series like it was a dream and never happened at all. Considering both episodes aired back-to-back that night, it’s a fair analysis.

- Archer get a speech at the founding of the Coalition of Planets and again at the founding of the Federation. Oh, and he investigates looking for the Terra Prime spy (who ends up offing himself after a face-to-face confrontation), but doesn’t look into why no one came to his and Trip’s aide when the ship was boarded or why Shran’s info about the ship being slow wasn’t accurate. Didn’t expect Archer needing to be reminded by Trip to question Shran to be a literal request, since Trip was too busy dying to do that.

- T’Pol loses Elizabeth, and then Trip. And she lost her mother earlier in the season as well, and divorced Kos; S4 was rough for T’Pol on personal level.

- Trip stops Starfleet Command from being destroyed by Terra Prime, and then protects Archer from pirates. But dies in a stupid way protecting Archer when there are supposed to be MACOs onboard, while manages to survive Paxton and his “soldiers” on Paxton’s base because Trip actually gets rescued by his friends. Trip isn’t enthusiastic about Samuels’s speech, but is for Archer’s.

- Reed goes from being made a part of Section 31 again to investigate Terra Prime to being a VIP and no investigation into Trip’s death

- Mayweather goes from re-establishing his relationship with Gannet Brooks and having “a lot to talk about” to being a VIP and more concerned about his career

- Sato, after creating portal universal translators for the ambassadors at the Coalition of Planets and having command of the bridge during the Terra Prime crisis, is now a VIP and will be off to clean up the linguistic database after the ceremony

- Phlox fails to save Elizabeth and then fails to save Trip. He finds something wrong with Elizabeth but nothing wrong with Talla as far as we know.