Spoilers ST Discovery - Starships and Technology Season Four Discussion

[Deks]

We might take this as retroactive establishing that starships in the 2250s really weren't all that resilient after all, and that the ability to shrug off weak-sounding, real-world spatial phenomena was rather unique to heavy caliber ships like the Enterprise...

...And that this state of affair continues as regards non-starships, which are the things that end up being distressed in the 32nd century. I mean, if they could be built as tough as Starfleet battleships, why weren't they back in TOS and ENT already? Unlike the hero ship, they wouldn't have been held back by being built and operated by the backward Starfleet of the upstart, barely centenarian Federation - their operators in the general case would be ruthless commercial entities with millennia of experience in starflight. Possibly it just so happens that ruthless commercial operators never cough up the dough to turn their freighters into battleships, no matter what century or millennium or billennium.

Timo Saloniemi

Doesn't make much sense.
Its a space station. Needs to be designed to be resilient among other things and withstand harshness of space... by the 23rd century already, all space habitats and stations would have to be built using similar standards like they are used for starships.
Similar hull plating, subspace technology, shielding (basic at least capable of deflecting various debris and stellar phenomena), tactical systems, etc.

And even if by some chance this didn't happen, by the 24th century, it would have been. Especially after the Dominion War.

Since then, the passage of time to the 32nd century is humongous. Enhanced hull materials would be ridiculously easy to create on the spot that its not even funny.
They'd have to use subspace technology and shielding as those are pretty basic systems to have on a space station. DS9 (even before it was upgraded to a full blown starbase had those systems).
Each station would have to have its own separate supply of programmable matter, replicators, etc.

EMP's and solar flares? Come on... for basic Trek technology, those are low grade common occurrances.
Even Ion storms and Neutronic Wavefronts of high classifications can be withstood by starships in the 24th century.

Basically, its 'space weather'.
By the 25th and 26th century, space stations would have been insulated almost entirely against those phenomena (and more).
Even in the 24th century, SF encountered a huge amount of anomalies (gravitational and otherwise) that they had ample amount of time to study and devise hull materials and methods to start being resilient to them... by the 32nd century... there would be very little if nothing in the galaxy (anomay wise) that could even faze SF ships.

Neutronium based hulls are basically untouchable against plethora of conventional weapons and natural phenomena... and 32nd century SF has hull composites of Neutronium, organics and holographics (which apparently according to Disco's explanations only sounds cool, but are in fact even worse than 24th century tech?).

I mean, they go through all the trouble of describing how much more advanced hull materials became (even though those advancements were fit for late 25th and 26th century ships), and then in the same episode have a simple EMC kill a Barzan family on a pre-Burn seed ship, whose design was maybe 125 years old (and would still be far more advanced than the Discovery).
What happened to automated systems which would detect such phenomena well in advance via subspace scans and automatically erect ridiculously hyper advanced/powerful and adaptive Metaphasic shields?

Even the 22nd century had automated integration of red alert and preparation of weapons upon detecting large enough impacts on the hull... or even 24th century where a computer automatically detected a vessel approaching at warp, went to yellow alert and automatically raised shields due to proximity alerty.

The NX-01 was able to withstand a Neutronic Wavefrong (albeit of likely lower intensity than the one VOY encountered in the DQ).

Its just lazy writing with so much over the top drama that it makes even the worst past Trek episodes look like they know what they're doing.

Even DS9 (before it became a full fledged starbase and was thoroughly upgraded - this was when it was first introduced when SF came aboard) still had basic subspace technology, some shields and even weapons (pitiful as they were).
And that was a Cardassian mining station to boot which was known as a Federation 'outpost' in early DS9 seasons and even then was able to use fancy subspace tech to make the perilous journey from Bajor's orbit to the mouth of the wormhole).

 

[Ronald Held]

Damage and repair times goes as the speed of plot?

 

[Lakenheath 72]

For myself, there was no need to make the escape vessel make two trips. I have known of escape vehicles in the past, including one spaceship, where they have been crowded past the safety margin and still get the people home. Three additional people would not be a stretch for a escape vessel, so the whole scenario as presented in the episode I find unconvincing.

 

[Timo]

Doesn't make much sense. It's a space station. Needs to be designed to be resilient among other things and withstand harshness of space... by the 23rd century already, all space habitats and stations would have to be built using similar standards like they are used for starships.

And all cars and clothes today should be bulletproof or at least fireproof.

But wanting a pony seldom results in the delivery of one, even for Christmas. A space station good enough to withstand normal operating conditions is more likely to get built than one capable of additionally weathering rare space weather. Even expensive warships sink in storms because there was no point in making them stormproof for the immense extra cost and little return.

What's so offensive about civilian ships and installations succumbing to solar burps in Trek? There's no real precedent for them not doing that, in any era. Even military hardware only ever gets truly resilient in that sense with TNG "Suspicions".

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Deks]

And all cars and clothes today should be bulletproof or at least fireproof.

But wanting a pony seldom results in the delivery of one, even for Christmas. A space station good enough to withstand normal operating conditions is more likely to get built than one capable of additionally weathering rare space weather. Even expensive warships sink in storms because there was no point in making them stormproof for the immense extra cost and little return.

What's so offensive about civilian ships and installations succumbing to solar burps in Trek? There's no real precedent for them not doing that, in any era. Even military hardware only ever gets truly resilient in that sense with TNG "Suspicions".

Timo Saloniemi

Except for the fact that the station in question was operated by Starfleet... also its been over 800 years since the 24th century (and 930 years since the 23rd century).
What, do materials and technology in 32nd century SF space stations = less caapable than tritanium and subspace tech of the 24th?
Earth basically equated the use of Tritanium as effectively antiquated... and tritanium based hulls were already potent enough coupled with subspace technology of the 24th century to resist a whole bunch of phenomena SF ships encountered.

As for cars not being bulletproof... don't equate real life commercial products with Trek... though since the Burn happened, C(r)apitalism did take over in what was once UFP space (if Osyraa is to be taken for her word)... but despite that, I don't think existing stations constructed of high calibre materials would be cannibalized and replaced with materials which would be worse than what even 24th century ships even used (especially when you consider the fact how much 'poopooing' was involved for any tech that's not 'contemporary' with 32nd century - sans of course the Spore Drive).

Also, programmable matter and 32nd century would make this a moot point to begin with... so much so that it could be used so existing hulls/matter could be converted on the spot to state of the art modern materials (although, transporters and replicators already had that capability since the 24th century).

So, as far as I'm concerned, its just bad writing to mention something as stupid as a solar flare or even an EMC... because in the scope of even basic Trek technology that was established... they were usually shown that they don't really pose any threat.

 

[Timo]

Except for the fact that the station in question was operated by Starfleet...

But wasn't a warship, just like the Tikhov wasn't.

also its been over 800 years since the 24th century (and 930 years since the 23rd century).

And four billion years since star travel was invented. So what? Fireproof cars aren't here after 1.5 centuries of automobiles, or tens of thousands of years of fire. (Except they are, but only when they are deemed worth it.)

[Earth basically equated the use of Tritanium as effectively antiquated... and tritanium based hulls were already potent enough coupled with subspace technology of the 24th century to resist a whole bunch of phenomena SF ships encountered.

They never stopped a flare, though. Indeed, flare-bombing a star was an effective way to kill Klingon warships and Cardassian shipyards in the 24th century. And while the heroes seldom said "Ee-em-pee" previously, their ships did lose power due to assorted shockwaves and mystery flashes; sidekicks are entitled to fare worse.

As for cars not being bulletproof... don't equate real life commercial products with Trek...

There's a reason IEDs kill soldiers, and that reason isn't that tanks couldn't survive IEDs. It's that armies don't buy tanks when they can buy trucks, and then bolt some armor plates onto a select few of those when absolutely necessary.

Likewise, an Oberth is a Starfleet starship but blows up when a Klingon growls in its general direction. A Tikhov is likely to enjoy even lesser protective investment.

Also, programmable matter and 32nd century would make this a moot point to begin with... so much so that it could be used so existing hulls/matter could be converted on the spot to state of the art modern materials (although, transporters and replicators already had that capability since the 24th century).

...Why would materials protect ships from flare ejecta or stations from EMP?

They were usually shown that they don't really pose any threat.

Where?

Flying into a star or having a star fly into you was in several episodes a horrible situation that was going to end up with everybody dead, until X happened. "Suspicion", leading into "Descent", was the first and only time it wasn't. Perhaps that one could only ever be afforded by the Federation Flagship.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

I would expect Programmable matter to be more vulnerable to EMP's and other phenomena than dumb objects since on a micro level, they can't have the shielding that the thick hardened casings for 24th century objects used to protect the sensitive electronics on the inside.

If you expect reconfigurable micro-electronics to be of molecular size, then don't expect that much protection since that conflicts with the hardened casings of simpler 24th century, much less modern tech that use thicker dumb panels to protect all electronics.

 

[Timo]

EMP isn't generally defeated by armor, but by building things that don't mind a bit of extra electricity. Say, in the 24th century, optronics are supposed to be a big thing, even if mostly in backstage terms; an isolinear chip that works on photons rather than charged particles might not notice gigantic EMPs much...

But there might always be things that remain vulnerable to EM shocks, and a shielded and robust system would still utterly fail when those weak links fail.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Deks]

I would expect Programmable matter to be more vulnerable to EMP's and other phenomena than dumb objects since on a micro level, they can't have the shielding that the thick hardened casings for 24th century objects used to protect the sensitive electronics on the inside.

If you expect reconfigurable micro-electronics to be of molecular size, then don't expect that much protection since that conflicts with the hardened casings of simpler 24th century, much less modern tech that use thicker dumb panels to protect all electronics.

Shields?
Programmable matter works with matter behind the shield... not outside the shield... at any rate, the materials the programmable matter would likely turn into would contain outer layer which is impervious (or resilient) compared to most spatial phenomena.
Its like having workers creating a wall and then doing most of the other work on the inside. Similar to how Borg nanotechnology creates an outer layer of Borg armor, plus on top of that has shields. Programmable matter would be similarly protected.

Also, gravitational anomalies were usually picked up by sensors in the 24th century... so why didn't this one show up on 32nd?

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

Shields?
Programmable matter works with matter behind the shield... not outside the shield... at any rate, the materials the programmable matter would likely turn into would contain outer layer which is impervious (or resilient) compared to most spatial phenomena.
Its like having workers creating a wall and then doing most of the other work on the inside. Similar to how Borg nanotechnology creates an outer layer of Borg armor, plus on top of that has shields. Programmable matter would be similarly protected.

Energy based or Physical Shielding?

Any programmable matter "Shielded casing" that is "Reprogrammable" runs into the same limitation since it needs to be able to reconfigure itself on the fly, which is actually a vulnerability IMO.

Traditional Matter that isn't Re-Programmable would have certain advantages of not having any electronic components in the outter housing that can be transformed.

Ergo, no exposed electronics.

You can't have a Shielded Outter Layer if the matter itself needs to be reconfigurable (including the housing that you use as shielding).

Borg doesn't use Nano-Technology in the way Programmable Matter is used.

What they use seems closer to replicator technology where you make simple & hard defined materials.

I don't think Programmable matter is nearly as great as you would want to attribute it to be.

Also, gravitational anomalies were usually picked up by sensors in the 24th century... so why didn't this one show up on 32nd?

Why did the Graviton Ellipse surprise USS Voyager?

It might have emerged from Subspace randomly and give little to no warning until it was almost on top of them.

 

[Timo]

What gravitational anomalies? The VOY gravity ellipse took our heroes by surprise, necessitating an escape at high impulse when warp no longer worked. The Dyson Sphere did not trigger alarms that would have saved the Jenolan, and the E-D first noticed something amiss when she was forced out of warp. Gravity is sneaky in Trek...

Ah, ninja'ed again. Drats.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[matthunter]

Also, the "space weather" analogy may be accurate - my house can withstand a strong wind. It cannot survive a hurricane. Both are weather.

 

[Mark_Nguyen]

true. A simple dialogue snip like "maybe the station was taken out by an EMP / flare / anomaly stronger than it was designed to normally withstand" would have helped.

I'm iffy on the lack of p-matter on the station too. I mean, random rogues had the stuff at the top of last year. Was the station somehow out of it? Why could they not replicate more, or can they even do it in the first place?

Mark

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

true. A simple dialogue snip like "maybe the station was taken out by an EMP / flare / anomaly stronger than it was designed to normally withstand" would have helped.

I'm iffy on the lack of p-matter on the station too. I mean, random rogues had the stuff at the top of last year. Was the station somehow out of it? Why could they not replicate more, or can they even do it in the first place?

Or maybe the EMP / Flare / Anomaly / Event did enough damage to make the Programmable Matter worthless.

It permanently screwed over whatever micro electronics that is inside the Programmable Matter to render it useless on a permanent basis.

Micro Electronics are very sensitive, it doesn't take much to screw it up.

 

[Timo]

It might be dramatically good to treat p-matter as a precious substance, something almost criminally difficut to come by in any quantity. Not true unobtainium like dilithium, but something you may manufacture for a pressing need - but you also wish to regulate access to, if you happen to be the manufacturer.

Also, p-matter hopefully can't make p-matter, even when replicators absolutely can replicate further copies of themselves... It might be more like universal band-aid, capable of briefly or permanently imitating any missing component or material but not achieving anything more magical than that.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Deks]

Also, the "space weather" analogy may be accurate - my house can withstand a strong wind. It cannot survive a hurricane. Both are weather.

Your house can't withstand a hurricane because the DESIGN of the house is stupidly bad... even though simple change in design such as to a dome like structure or an inverted cone CAN in fact survive a hurricane, earthquakes, fires, flooding, etc.... and this was doable since 1970-ies.

That's a really bad analogy because in C(r)apitalism, we design housing according to cost efficiency/monetary affordability (plus, design choices are limited to people who have little to no understanding of what a better design is)... not technical efficiency and to be sustainable.

UFP doesn't use C(r)apitalism for starship and station construction. If things changed just after the Burn due to the Emerald Chain, fine... but it was suggested that existing stations and ships are basically designs that PREDATE the Burn...and those should already be insulated well enough against all kinds of space weather.

Also, Voy not detecting a graviton elipse... not quite... they DID detect a subspace disturbace and eventually modified the sensors to give them prior warning.

Also, that was in the 24th century - you can't possibly tell me they hadn't updated the sensors in the over 800 years since then to readily be able to detect subspace gravitational anomalies... and even massive gravitational fluctuations associated with Dyson Spheres - those could easily contribute to better sensor calibration down the line.

Or maybe the EMP / Flare / Anomaly / Event did enough damage to make the Programmable Matter worthless.

It permanently screwed over whatever micro electronics that is inside the Programmable Matter to render it useless on a permanent basis.

Micro Electronics are very sensitive, it doesn't take much to screw it up.

TNG had evidence of EMP being sorely ineffective against the Enterprise-D for example... sure, it battered the ship proportional to increase in shield intensity, but otherwise, didn't result in dead ship systems.
Shields generally protect against these type of phenomena, and if you have a strong enough subspace field erected around your ship/station, that can easily act as a defense mechanism of sorts.

Bottom line is... I don't think a gravitational anomaly that spans 5 Ly's would go unnoticed - but hey, this is the same TV show that established 32nd century planetary sensors can't really detect a ship at even the edge of a solar system, despite the fact ships have been routinely picked up by subspace scans in the 24th century from LY's away.

I guess, I'll need to make peace with the fact they dumbed the tech down to such an extensive degree in the 32nd century.

 

[Timo]

What would capitalism have to do with disinterest in adopting extreme protective measures? The reason infantrymen today don't don steel armor and wield steel swords, despite those being superior to stupid kevlar aprons and bayonets in a fight against a properly equipped swordsman, isn't that steel is expensive. If swordsmen really were a threat, the armor and the blade, or their evolved forms, would be fielded. But that's an idiotic way to respond to the swordsman threat - in effect, it generates the swordsman threat. Infantrymen instead skip that issue and avoid the punishment of carrying all that useless steel around. And then die of sword wounds on occasion, and of shrapnel comparable to said on much more frequent occasion.

It would be idiotic to build houses like bunkers today. Protection against hurricanes is not what houses exist for, and the real price of having them do that is immense even if all construction and materials were free.

Also, there will always be a bigger storm. And it isn't even a predictable rat race, and "evolution of response" can't ever cope with it. One day, the perfect storm will come, and the camera will be there, recording the devastation that did not happen during all those imperfect storms.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Ronald Held]

Could programmable matter have a finite number of transformations?

 

[DEWLine]

Wear and tear affects programmable matter as it does anything else, I'm sure. Not knowing the materials it's made from, I can't begin to speculate as to things like Mean Time Between Failures...

 

[Go-Captain]

Could programmable matter have a finite number of transformations?

Do you mean finite times it can transform or finite things it can turn into?

I hope it doesn’t have finite times it can change, and I don’t see why it would. Except we just saw the crew use a box of the stuff and no one thought to dismantle it to reuse as space suits, and that implies it can be used only once.

Except we have also seen the phasers transform from ornament to phaser without being locked as either, and presumably being programmable matter. That tells use it must have a bunch of transformations.

So the answer is whatever.