Good is highly subjective. I want a fight that I believe that these people are in danger. The prequels didn't always succeed at that.
That is the essence of a good sword fight.
News Obi-Wan Kenobi series premiering on May 27
- Thread starter Mach5
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Unless there’s a really good plot reason, I just would prefer Obi-Wan and Vader not to fight. Where I sit now, I see no reason for them to fight other than to be kewl!
Although I agree that Obi-Wan’s run-through of Maul in Rebels is the feat of an amazing swordsman (and even though real sword fighting would not have the flourishes we see from Star Wars saber battles), the “I wanna see kewl stuff” part of me does want to see prequel level lightsaber battles. But make the participants make sense.
I didn’t feel that. I felt annoyed.
Vader is a monster. At the same time he’s a victim. It makes the character quite complex. We didn’t need the Rogue One scene to show that. It felt tacked on and unearned. If he was more of a presence in the movie, maybe. But not as presented.
Although I agree that Obi-Wan’s run-through of Maul in Rebels is the feat of an amazing swordsman (and even though real sword fighting would not have the flourishes we see from Star Wars saber battles), the “I wanna see kewl stuff” part of me does want to see prequel level lightsaber battles. But make the participants make sense.
I didn’t feel that. I felt annoyed.
Vader is a monster. At the same time he’s a victim. It makes the character quite complex. We didn’t need the Rogue One scene to show that. It felt tacked on and unearned. If he was more of a presence in the movie, maybe. But not as presented.
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Agreed. It doesn't feel very well earned to create this conflict, when there is tension already established in ANH. To me, having Vader and Obi-Wan square off will not add to the mythos of Vader and will make him look even less capable.
Agreed. Rogue One's Vader appearance was a strange bit and felt like it belonged in a completely separate film. Vader was not a real menace in the film itself, which makes his final scene going back to "look kewl."
While I can definitely see why the Vader/Obi-Wan fighting in the series appeals, it is going to be a very difficult dramatic piece to make work because the sense of danger is very limited. Not saying it can't be done but it's not something I really feel any eagerness to see them put time and effort in to.
I think you may have missed the whole point of that...........it was to show Obi Wan had evolved and learned from the mistakes both he and Qui Gon made in Episode I. Maul went straight back to the same move and Obi Wan countered it this time. FMMV.
The best part of the Kenobi/Maul duel on Tatooine is far more than lightsabers clashing. It begins far earlier, a duel of ideas and philosophies, and it illustrates Obi-Wan's growth, and how Maul has languished in his ability and become stuck.
It's a beautiful, well constructed duel, that is the height of swordsmanship, of tension, and character. Especially as Obi-Wan cradles Maul as he dies, the same way he holds Qui-Gon and Satine. The scene is layered perfectly well, and completely defies the rule of kewl so common in lightsaber duels.
It's a beautiful, well constructed duel, that is the height of swordsmanship, of tension, and character. Especially as Obi-Wan cradles Maul as he dies, the same way he holds Qui-Gon and Satine. The scene is layered perfectly well, and completely defies the rule of kewl so common in lightsaber duels.
Thats a really good point. Sure, there might be some sort of an injury, either physically or more likely emotionally for Obi-Wan. But any conflict between these two really only ends one way: Kenobi getting away. And that makes Vader look dumb.
Overconfident I would say. I could see Vader going all out on Kenobi and, like Maul, getting curbed by Obi-wan's mastery of defense. Kenobi having moved on and Vader trying too hard to duel like he did last time as Anakin. "Still the learner" so to speak.
When Vader fights Kenobi on the Death Star, they are both reserved and testing each other for openings. They are both masters now.
When Vader fights Kenobi on the Death Star, they are both reserved and testing each other for openings. They are both masters now.
I understood what they were going for, I just believe that it was ridiculous.
They can't take that from you............
Honestly, a confrontation between ROTS and ANH always made sense to me. How else is Obi-Wan going to learn Vader is alive and what he looks like? The news? I could see it starting there, or rumors from pilots at Mos Eisley, and Obi-Wan feels committed to abandon Luke and finish what he started. You could even have Obi-Wan adhere to Padme's final words of there still being good in Anakin. This all culminates with Obi-Wan trying to appeal to whatever's left of Anakin, only to surmise his old friend truly is gone and Vader is more machine now than man, twisted and evil.
As for Vader's learner line... I can see them putting in some line of dialogue from Palpatine or Obi-Wan or some Jedi Vader's hunting down. It could be about his skills as a Sith lord, or perhaps his commitment to the dark side. Half the series could be Vader trying to expunge that last vestiges of Anakin Skywalker and become a true master of evil.
All a bit convoluted...maybe. Probably. Entertaining? I think so. Helps better connect things between the prequel and original trilogy? Definitely.
As for Vader's learner line... I can see them putting in some line of dialogue from Palpatine or Obi-Wan or some Jedi Vader's hunting down. It could be about his skills as a Sith lord, or perhaps his commitment to the dark side. Half the series could be Vader trying to expunge that last vestiges of Anakin Skywalker and become a true master of evil.
All a bit convoluted...maybe. Probably. Entertaining? I think so. Helps better connect things between the prequel and original trilogy? Definitely.
Which is all well and good, but Maul watched him flip out of that well and then just stood there and watched Kenobi strike him. It was not a good scene.
Um.....the force?
Not to mention the fact that everyone in the galaxy knows of Darth Vader and how dangerous he is. The only difference is Kenobi knows who Vader once was.
Obi-wan's bait in Rebels was to fight like Qui-gon and tempt Maul in to striking just like he did to kill him. And Maul took the bait.
Basically Obi-wan starts with his saber in a ready position like he would later do with Vader on the Death Star, but quickly moves to a stance like he would have used in the Clone Wars many time (against Grievous and Maul), But after seeing what position Maul takes, Obi-wan switches to a stance that Qui-Gon used back on Naboo. Maul shifts his feet to counter this stance, and Obi-wan knows he's got him, as Obi-wan knows exactly what Maul will do and when the upward bump comes to try to disorient Kenobi (like he did with Qui-Gon), Obi-wan is already there with a rapid downward slash to cut the saberstaff (and Maul) in two.
It was over before the first swing because Obi-wan is a master and knows his opponent better than his opponent knows him. The essence of a master samurai duel in the old classics. No fancy sword work. Just pre-battle posturing, a stare down, and a quick charge and slash, with a pause before the defeated reacts to the killing blow.
Regular lightsaber duels are more like Earl Flynn duels, with a lot of back and forth banter (Dun Möch) which is interesting to watch, mixed with some high action. But the final Obi-wan vs. Maul duel was special in that it was the most true to how a duel would be. Quick, to the point, and the master wins before it even starts.
It was over before the first swing because Obi-wan is a master and knows his opponent better than his opponent knows him. The essence of a master samurai duel in the old classics. No fancy sword work. Just pre-battle posturing, a stare down, and a quick charge and slash, with a pause before the defeated reacts to the killing blow.
Regular lightsaber duels are more like Earl Flynn duels, with a lot of back and forth banter (Dun Möch) which is interesting to watch, mixed with some high action. But the final Obi-wan vs. Maul duel was special in that it was the most true to how a duel would be. Quick, to the point, and the master wins before it even starts.
Completely agree, and learning about sword fighting has made me appreciate some of the older duels more, and the prequel duels less. Yes, I will always find Duel of the Fates to be fairly well done, largely owing to the immense physicality of the duelists. But, and this is something I'm coming to appreciate more, it isn't the only way to tell a duel. In fact, it actually misses the point of a duel because a duel should be telling a story, but most of the duels in the PT especially feel very superficial. They lack a punch aside from how they look because the motivation is not always so well known. For instance, Maul wants revenge in TPM but what does that mean? He kills Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan and...profits? The story is largely incomplete of what will happen if Maul succeeds. We lack a lot of context to support this carrying forward. Doesn't make it less impressive, but it does diminish the story impact.
Contrast that with the duel on Tatooine. Maul and Kenobi both have specific purpose, are driven by specific philosophy and I can track exactly what will happen if either succeeds. Obi-Wan is shown to have grown significantly, even from seeing him Clone Wars and ROTS as he transitions his stance. It's an excellent contrast to what the Jedi were in the Prequel era. The ROTS novel does a great job of highlighting the stagnation of the Jedi while the Sith had grown to fight a new war. Obi-Wan has grown and learned to fight in a new way.
There's a reason why this scene works so well; it's a story all by itself and tells it very well.
Are you talking about TPM? Because I thought we were all talking about Rebels.
Love that scene, one of my favorites in the entire franchise.
When it comes to the duels, the prequels are kind of fun, but they did get a bit over the top at times.
I really liked the duels in the sequels, they're a bit faster paced and bigger in scope than the Original Trilogy, part aren't as over the top as the prequels.