Kirk's Rank in ST: TWOK

[CorporalCaptain]

And "killing off" the new characters. I guess the answer is Phase II leftovers.

I'm not sure I understand. Were Riker and Troi, *ahem* sorry, I mean Decker and Ilia going to be killed off in Phase II/Star Trek II? I thought they were going to be regulars. Having them would be a leftover, but killing them off would not be.

Are you saying that that killing them off was a way of completing the reset back to the TOS status quo, at least in terms of cast? That would make sense.

The movie could have started with Kirk on the Enterprise as Captain. No pulling the rug out from under Decker. No disco McCoy. Find other reasons for Decker and Kirk to rub each other the wrong way.

Those are good ideas, and it would have moved things along.

Another in-between idea: Kirk could have been the Commodore in charge of the refit. More of a direct connection to the Enterprise. He sits in the chair as Commodore Kirk, displacing Decker. Not as ridiculous.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Are you saying that that killing them off was a way of completing the reset back to the TOS status quo, at least in terms of cast? That would make sense.

Yes.

 

[GNDN18]

Sounds like a case of "toys back in the box". They had to get everyone in their TOS configurations: Kirk's a captain, Spock's XO/Science and McCoy's CMO. Which make one wonder why they bothered putting them all out to pasture to begin with? And "killing off" the new characters. I guess the answer is Phase II leftovers.
The movie could have started with Kirk on the Enterprise as Captain. No pulling the rug out from under Decker. No disco McCoy. Find other reasons for Decker and Kirk to rub each other the wrong way.

My sense (and I’m sure Maurice or Harvey could explode this theory), was–then and now—that the continuing voyages of the starship Enterprise were to center on Saavik and David, as well as a new cast of featured players. The main cast was never exactly a collection of bankable stars and relegating them to cameo roles would make make fiscal sense while growing the franchise.

 

[diankra]

I always felt there was a certain level of politics behind Kirk being an admiral and that he was promoted and subsequently kept under someone's thumb (possibly Nogura). He was allowed to temporarily return to being a captain for the V'Ger Encounter, but it's totally conjecture as to what happened after that. In any event, he was fully back in the Admiralty by the time of TWOK, and it's possible that he was still on a higher up's leash, IMO. Kirk was officially only a passenger on the Enterprise in TWOK--it was Spock that relinquished command of the ship to him, not Starfleet.

Yep, politics. Kirk was promoted to admiral early, but then languished.

 

[gottacook]

Seems obvious that a considerable amount of time HAS gone by. I never considered - and still don't - the possibility that TWOK could ever come directly after TMP.
Take Khan, for example. As of TWOK, Khan has obviously been stewing in the remains of Ceti Alpha V for a lot of years. He's had a LOT of time to have that bitterness and revenge fester in hs mind. It's not like the devastation had just happened.
And there's also David Marcus. Assuming he was born sometime before TOS, only a considerable time gap between TMP and TWOK would allow him to be the twentysomething scientist he was in the latter film.
Also there would have to be allowances for Chekov to reach the rank of full Commander - in TMP, he was only a LIeutenant - and become the XO of the Reliant.

I think you misconstrued what I wrote. I meant that TWoK treats itself as if there is no TMP (hence no passage of time between them), but does take into account the 15 years since "Space Seed." Fifteen years is not only enough time for Khan to stew, he even explicitly says that's how long ago he and his people were marooned. David, at the apparent age we see him as, could have easily been conceived ~10 years before Kirk in his early 30s is first seen as Enterprise captain (34 during the second season's "The Deadly Years"). Likewise, regarding Chekov, 15 years from ensign to commander is consonant with other officer advancement we know about (and less impressive than Kirk rising from ensign, as he had been when reporting Finney's mistake as recounted in "Court Martial" testimony, all the way to captain during what would have to be a shorter period, unless he'd been an Academy student as a pre-adolescent).

 

[Timo]

TWoK indeed makes quite a bit of effort to show that time has passed, in terms of multiple direct references and inferences. TMP is more neutral on that - the characters are clearly older physically, but only moderately higher in rank, and the absences of Spock and McCoy feel like brief stints to the alien world outside Starfleet rather than valid career choices. One might even think that the minimum time since TOS that we learn from the dialogue, 2.5 years, is in fact the entire time that has transpired.

Yet it never was a comfortable fit. Why is Kirk a Rear Admiral now, and the bloody Chief of Ops to boot? Did they skip Commodore when promoting him for his heroics? Also, yes, this is an ambitious motion picture and no longer a TV show - but in-universe, how come everything looks so very different? Are we to think in terms of "a universe" or not?

TWoK is unabashed about referring back to the TV show, with characters and events and concepts. TMP is quite abashed, despite basically doing the very same. Even when Trek moves on, along the track laid down with the second movie, and truly becomes a universe and a franchise, we're left wondering about TMP.

Plopping TMP in a slot closer to the fictional 2280 than 2270 helps with the rank issues, gives more depth to the homecomings of Spock and McCoy, and excuses Kirk becoming such an ass when separated from his friends and his true love. But remembering TMP eats away at the impact of TWoK, which retreads the frustrations of "Admiral Kirk".

Then again, the double whammy nicely drives home the point: Kirk's love will forever go unrequited and unfulfilled, since whenever he gives his all to Starfleet, it takes him farther away from what Starfleet could give to him. There's no winning that particular game, except by throwing it, as in the later movies. The rank stagnation becomes a big part of Kirk's character, and nicely culminates in him bowing out as an unwanted dinosaur who would have been even more of an embarrasment and hindrance to peace with Klingons had he retained high rank till the end.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

As far as Kirk being demoted to the rank of Captain in TMP, there's no real precedence in the US Navy (as no-one over o6 rank has ever been a solo ship CO there) that I'm aware of, however there is contradictory precedence within the British Royal Navy.

IIRC, the "Captain" of the Royal Yacht was typically a Rear Admiral, though Vice Admirals or Commodore occassionally held the billet instead. No information on whether they wore a Senior or Flag Officer uniform, but tradition requires that they would be referred to as "Captain" on duty (though likely by their higher substantive rank socially*).

All COs of the carrier Queen Elizabeth to date have been substantive Commodores -- indeed the first CO left the billet equivalent to the "Superintendent of the US Naval Academy" in order to take up the post -- but are referred to and wear the uniform of a Captain while on duty*.

As far as the issue of whether Kirk should have been promoted, I would say yes and no. Even in the USN, promotion is not automatic after you leave the junior officer ranks, I forget whether LT or LCDR is the cut-off, and the rank held is mostly determined by the billet held (IIRC, it's actually possible though unusual for someone to be demoted because they move laterally between a 4-star and 3-star post). That said, Kirk's position as Chief of Operations (allegedly for the whole organisation, but more likely for the Sol System or the sector) could reasonably be junior to his Academy posting but might not be as the rank held as been extremely variable in the RW, and the only two confirmed successors in the regular timeline were both Rear Admirals as well.

* I would also assume that they continue to be paid according to their substantive rank.

 

[jackoverfull]

IIRC, the "Captain" of the Royal Yacht was typically a Rear Admiral, though Vice Admirals or Commodore occassionally held the billet instead. No information on whether they wore a Senior or Flag Officer uniform, but tradition requires that they would be referred to as "Captain" on duty (though likely by their higher substantive rank socially*).

yeah, I have no issue with admiral Kirk being referred to as captain while in the command of the enterprise (it’s a position, not a rank) and can even digest captain Decker being addressed as commander while being the XO, the real puzzler is they switching to new uniforms.

 

[Timo]

...At every opportunity!

I mean, if they can don a different type of shirt for a scene just because, then donning one with different rank braid shouldn't be much of a problem. Apparently, you just push the right buttons on your insta-uniform-making machine anyway (implicit in TMP and the shower scene, explicit nowadays thanks to DIS).

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Nerys Myk]

yeah, I have no issue with admiral Kirk being referred to as captain while in the command of the enterprise (it’s a position, not a rank) and can even digest captain Decker being addressed as commander while being the XO, the real puzzler is they switching to new uniforms.

Part of Trek’s only a Captain can captain concept.

 

[There Be Whales Here]

Yet it never was a comfortable fit. Why is Kirk a Rear Admiral now, and the bloody Chief of Ops to boot? Did they skip Commodore when promoting him for his heroics? Also, yes, this is an ambitious motion picture and no longer a TV show - but in-universe, how come everything looks so very different? Are we to think in terms of "a universe" or not?

Since we never really saw any Commodores that weren't attached to a Starbase, I was always under the impression it was a rank more or less inclusive to that position and any Captain promoted to another administrative duty at StarFleet headquarters (like Chief of Ops) would go directly to the lowest admiralty grade like Kirk was. Of course Commodores have also been one of those on again/off again ranks in Trek where despite them being somewhat common during TOS, they were MIA after the one barely-heard mention in TMP; which includes the entire run of the TNG/DS9/VOY timeline, only resurfacing in PIC from what I understand.

As far as everything looking different, while there's obviously the real-world explanation of wanting to separate TMP from TOS for the big screen, but this has always somewhat bothered me as well. I would have liked to see perhaps a few familiar elements still around, like say some of the people in the scenes at StarFleet headquarters still wearing the TOS uniforms; thereby suggesting a fleet-wide change is still being phased in starting with the most visible positions, like Starship crew, first. This would especially seem more plausible considering that with the exception of some tweaks, the uniform design (and many other elements) intended for Phase II maintained the same basic TOS look.

At least we did get the one, barely visible scene in the Director's Cut of a TOS style shuttlecraft taking off at StarFleet headquarters to suggest the changes between the show and the movie era were not 100% complete, but I would have liked to see more. I at least like to imagine that since the refit Enterprise is supposed to be such a radical design and the template for the same style of ships we see after TMP, that the rest of Starfleet vessels out there still look like a TOS era design at the time of the first movie.

Of course all this is a minor quibble considering ST: Enterprise really began the whole retro-con train relating to how in-universe technology and ships should've appeared at the time and then STD merely hammered that finally nail in the coffin.

 

[J.T.B.]

Which make one wonder why they bothered putting them all out to pasture to begin with?

I think "getting the band back together" was/is a known way to create some interesting scenes in a script.

Since we never really saw any Commodores that weren't attached to a Starbase,

Except Matt Decker.

 

[There Be Whales Here]

Except Matt Decker.

True...he did seem to be the exception and an unusual one at that considering an officer of flag rank would not normally command a single ship unless it was an important or distinguished one like a flagship; which we were given no indication the Constellation was.

I like to think one of the reasons for Decker's superior rank was merely a convenient way to justify him taking command of the Enterprise since if he was just another Captain he would not have been able to commandeer Kirk's ship so easily and thus we wouldn't have the scenes of dramatic tension and personal stakes.

 

[J.T.B.]

True...he did seem to be the exception and an unusual one at that considering an officer of flag rank would not normally command a single ship unless it was an important or distinguished one like a flagship; which we were given no indication the Constellation was.

My old theory which I've posted many times is that three or four starships form a cruiser division (or squadron if you prefer) and one of their COs has the rank of commodore and a second hat as division commander. Since the ships normally operate independently, the division commander position is mostly administrative, except on rare occasions when more than one ship operates together.

I like to think one of the reasons for Decker's superior rank was merely a convenient way to justify him taking command of the Enterprise since if he was just another Captain he would not have been able to commandeer Kirk's ship so easily and thus we wouldn't have the scenes of dramatic tension and personal stakes.

Yes I agree, it was probably a dramatic consideration.

 

[WarpFactorZ]

If you accept that TMP never happened -- and I feel TWOK makes it clear that they wanted to erase it -- then Kirk's rank comes from some more natural career progression.

 

[Ryan Thomas Riddle]

Kirk didn't need a temporary grade reduction to take command in TMP. They just wanted him to be called "Captain Kirk" like the show. Although, a ship's commander is referred to as "captain" regardless of actual rank.

I've always thought Kirk should've taken command of the mission and Decker still captain the ship. That would result in the same conflict, and they could've still done the same ending.

With an Admiral Kirk in command, then the Enterprise would finally technically be a Flagship.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Except Matt Decker.

And Robert Wesley.

 

[C.E. Evans]

And Robert Wesley.

Yeah, in TOS it seemed like a commodore was basically a senior captain, capable of commanding a single ship, a small taskforce of ships, or a starbase. It may still have been a flag rank, and likely was, but a commodore may not have been really considered a "desk jockey" during Kirk's 5-year mission, IMO.

 

[J.T.B.]

And Robert Wesley.

Good call. I was thinking he was "associated" with the space station because he met them there, but Enright seems to be the boss of the station.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

I've always thought that Wesley was granted command of the "attack force" engaged in war games against the M-5 only for the purpose of the exercises.

"Enterprise from Commodore Wesley aboard the USS Lexington." [http://www.chakoteya.net/StarTrek/53.htm]​

To me, that makes it sound like he wasn't in command of the Lexington until the exercises began. (He commanded the Lexington in addition to the whole force, because he sat in the captain's chair.)