The REAL reason that Kes isn't a more beloved character...
- Thread starter JeremyLH
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I didn't mind the catsuit, as long as everyone else (Gals and Guys) wore it as well.My issues with Seven's catsuit lie largely with the fact that it had a built-in corset, and Jeri Ryan had trouble breathing while wearing it. No one should have to work under those conditions.
I didn't mind Troi's series of costumes as well, as long as she's not sporting them on the bridge.
I don't recall Chakotay, Paris, Tuvok, Neelix, Kim, the Doctor, Kes, Belanna, or Janeway ever wearing catsuits.
??? Where did you misunderstood what I wrote??? The point was if Chakotay, Paris, Tuvok, Neelix, Kim, the Doctor, Kes, Belanna, or Janeway wore the catsuit along with Seven, I'd be okay with it.
I didn't misunderstand. I was being facetious. My point was that the Powers That Be for VOY had no intention of showing anyone else off in sexy costumes every week, especially not the men. That sexism was reserved solely for Jeri Ryan.
Funny how TPTB found so many different ways to crap on their characters.
Janeway was schizophrenic.
Chakotay was underused.
Neelix was widely disliked.
Kes was short-changed.
Harry was locked in "clueless noob" mode.
Tom was the lead in "Threshold".
And Seven was trapped in a Victorian torture device.
Janeway was schizophrenic.
Chakotay was underused.
Neelix was widely disliked.
Kes was short-changed.
Harry was locked in "clueless noob" mode.
Tom was the lead in "Threshold".
And Seven was trapped in a Victorian torture device.
I think you're shortchanging Tom. He was actually a good character at first, and I enjoyed his guy-palling with Harry in the holodeck. But then the writers caught "Monica & Chandler" disease and stuck him with Belanna, and his interesting qualities went down the tubes.
were parings really needed? None of them made much sense to me on the show. Chakotey and Seven made no sense at all. Paris and B'lanna made sense in the sense of two people with sexual drives and few dating options but it wasn't interesting. Neelix and Kes was always going to be creepy. About the only pairing I might have understood would have been 7 and the Doctor. Maybe Kim and Torres.
They needed at least one, I think.
No, they didn't. Dumbest Trek ship ever, though Worf/Troi comes close.
Anyone/Kes was. We consider 18 or so to be the minimum non-creepy age, and Kes was going to die at age 9.
I could have seen either or both of those pairings going somewhere.
I'm of the opinion that that's probably not true. I'm guessing that you just don't watch or give much thought to shows with characters you don't buy. For example, I can't imagine that you (or anyone else) ever saw an episode of Homeboys in Outer Space and actually bought the characters (or anything else about the show).
And that was the case with me. I just stopped watching Voyager. Again, it wasn't until years later, in 2019, that I actually watched through the Voyager series.
I watched through it specifically because Seven of Nine turned up on the advertisements for the ST: Picard series and I wanted to familiarize myself with the character. I, at first, watched the series premier and then skipped to the last episode of season three and watched seasons four through seven from there. After I did that, I went back and watched the whole series from season one onward. I was able to do that because the later seasons with Seven sold me on the series in a way that the earlier seasons never did.
I watched ST: Picard all the way to the episode where Seven of Nine finally shows up and never watched another episode. My loss of interest in the series followed a similar (though not identical) trajectory as watching Voyager the first time. In this case, though, it wasn't so much a matter of rejecting the character(s) for not being 'real' so much as rejecting the entire series for not being Star Trek.
The series right from the start was breaking away from the long established ST formula and any time the production does something like that, it arouses a certain suspicion in the audience that the production might not know what they are doing. Seven finally makes her appearance in the series and it's not the same character that we are familiar with. It's a completely different character that we don't know anything about but just so happens to be played by the same actress. And so, like 'Threshold', the episode confirms our suspicions that the production doesn't know what they are doing.
Off on a tangent, my brother and I both consider ST: Nemesis to be among the best of the ST movies but the movie is counted among the worst by the larger ST fan base. My brother's theory is that the reason is that Nemesis (much like Picard) doesn't actually follow any of the standard ST formula for movies in the way that it was directed and that it would have faired much better if it had been a stand alone movie or part of a different franchise.
I wouldn't have bought a pairing between the Doctor and anyone else because he was a computer program.
I personally bought the Torres and Paris pairing and so haven't given much (or really any) thought to a Kim and Torres pairing.
I agree that a Kes and anyone other than a member of her same species was creepy and that Seven and Chakotay was one fo the worst ideas for a pairing in the ST universe. From what I understand from an interview I once read with Jeri Ryan, it was done on a dare or a bet. They knew right away that the pairing was nonsense and the audience would never buy it and that's why they limited it to a holodeck episode and the series finale.
No, Janeway had split or multiple personality disorder but she was not schizo-anything.
Paranoid schizophrenia and some other schizo- disorders actually run on one side of my family (I was lucky to avoid getting hit with it) and so it's a subject I happen to know a few things about. People often use schizophrenia interchangeable with split or multiple personality disorder but they are not the same thing at all. And I don't even known where or how some people got the idea that they were.
Well that's what happens if all the writers have a different idea of what the character should be, and the character always has to be in the right. And when she also has to be not just a character but the "perfect" symbol of what a female captain could be.
Worse than that really since, unless they were tight-laced (which was often frowned upon and seen as vanity, but still happened far too often, just like people today will go to the sun studio far more often than what's healthy for the skin), Victorian corsets were a lot more comfortable than their modern fetish-wear equivalents. Movie and television costumes also often lack the under-garments a Victorian woman would have worn under the corset to protect her skin from scratches and chafing.
Given how appallingly unprofessional the writers were (ludicrous episodes, easily addressed inconsistencies, and taunting their fans for no good reason), I guess we shouldn't be surprised.
My apologies. No offense was intended.
And it was so unnecessary. Kate Mulgrew was more than capable of playing a human character with human vulnerabilities. And she would still have been a great captain.
That summed up my distaste for TNG movies and PICARD.
Your analysis is spot on. I just could never invest myself in Voyager's characters other than Janeway, Seven or the Doctor. This video sums up my feelings on the the show
It's clear by this point that the franchise runners needed to be replaced as they didn't seem capable of thinking outside of the TNG box, Both Voyager and Enterprise were suppose to be shows that were different, yet both shows killed their own premise in the very first episode. Voyager did it the moment those Starfleet uniforms were put on the Maquis and Enterprise did it the moment a temporal cold war with future guy was introduced.
It's clear by this point that the franchise runners needed to be replaced as they didn't seem capable of thinking outside of the TNG box, Both Voyager and Enterprise were suppose to be shows that were different, yet both shows killed their own premise in the very first episode. Voyager did it the moment those Starfleet uniforms were put on the Maquis and Enterprise did it the moment a temporal cold war with future guy was introduced.
Back on topic:
Was it established how old Neelix was? The whole point of the relationship was to present something alien to viewers; and I saw it as that. As terrible as VOY was as Star Trek series, I thought it was evident the ideas were to transition Kes to Tom Paris.
Was it established how old Neelix was? The whole point of the relationship was to present something alien to viewers; and I saw it as that. As terrible as VOY was as Star Trek series, I thought it was evident the ideas were to transition Kes to Tom Paris.
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