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Original series warp 10 Vs Voyager warp 10

As warp technology becomes more and more advanced in future centuries, Starfleet runs the risk of getting into cumbersome and unwieldy numbers as ships get closer and closer to Ludicrous Speed (remember that reference from the old "Five-Minute Voyager" site?). This would happen in either the TOS-era scale or the TNG-era scale. What's more of a mouthful, Warp 9.9999999999999999999997, or warp 1,389,964,159,851,152.3? Perhaps they should dispense with the numbers, and instead use letter classifications for different warp speeds. Or go with completely arbitrary code names. USS Excelsior approaches the enemy vessel at Warp Fluffy Bunny, while the Enterprise comes in from the opposite side at Warp Green Platypus.

Kor
 
I remember reading that early on TNG people decided that warp 10 was infinite speed and could not be reached, it would mean being in every point in the galaxy at the same time.
IIRC, not even Q was supposed to be capable of traveling at Warp 10, but could still move in the blink of an eye almost instantly anywhere across the Universe in the 9.999999999999999+ range. As such, Voyager wouldn't even need Warp 10 to get back home in literally just a second...
 
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An interesting point, I just finished watching "Is There in Truth no Beauty". When Larry sabotages the Enterprise, it does warp 9.5 through the galactic barrier, and caused a space-time continuum problem. No one became a salamander, however.

No such problem occurred when Nomad 'fixed' the Enterprise to do warp 10, the Kelvins 'fixed' the Enterprise to do warp 11, or the other times it exceeded warp 9. It may have been a galactic barrier issue...
 
the smart money is on the Excelsior Transwarp project actually being successful, and leading to the Warp Scale recalibration
This is what I've always thought. More or less, "Transwarp" is just a word to mean "Faster than the Warp we have now", which would also be applicable to Borg Transwarp Conduits.

I've thought the "tell" was the line in "Flashback" on Voyager when Janeway said that ships of the 23rd century were half as fast as they were in the 2370s. We know from the Warp Scale recalibration, that's more or less true. As I see it there are distrinct generations of classes.

-Gen 1: The NX era, which lasted in improved forms until around 2200. This allowed Starfleet to explore in a few hundred light years time efficiently. But the Federation was still a pretty "loose" organization.

-Gen 2: The pre-Constitution era, from around 2200 to 2260. Lots of Discovery-era ships here. This didn't allow much more exploration, but the superior speed and homogenized tech and ship design allowed the Federation to become more formal.

-Gen 3: The Constitution-class era. This class, specifically the improved refit allowed for highly serialized and modular ship-building for the first time. Starfleet grew, the Federation grew. The Federation pushed into the Alpha Quadrant for the first time (before hand, it mostly stayed in the Beta Quadrant). The Miranda-class variants were hte main legacy of this era, as they proved the most expandable with a modular aft saucer section, and without the secondary hull. Constitutions appeared in the 2340s and 2350s, but did not replace older classes en masse until after the Fed-Klingon War. They were built based on the experiences of the Fed-Klingon War - rugged and durable. While the original constitutions were more firmly explorers, the refits and its derivatives had a form military design principle behind it, in case the Klingons attacked again. This era lasted roughly 40 years, around 2260-2300.

-Gen 4: The Excelsior-class era introduced a whole host of new technologies that would form the foundation of a series of technologies that would "make" the Federation and Starfleet in the 24th century. It took the modular design of the Constitution class and evolved it. The Transwarp engine more or less succeeded and ships became twice as fast, with later smaller versions being retrofitted into Miranda-class ships. The Federation started to explore and expand deep into the Alpha Quadrant until it came smack up against the Cardassian Empire, which led to a series of wars in the 2340s and 2350s. Gen 4 "shrunk' local space the way the 707 and 737 "shrunk" the world by allowing routine transit of the federation, and spin-off technologies wholly replacing Gen 2 and Gen 3, that by the 2370s, Miranda class ships had much more in common with Excelsior class ships on the inside than the Constitution class. Excelsior-class era ships typically share a common hull plating type and/or nacelle/secondary hull/saucer shape. This era was supposed to last roughly 40 years, but ended up lasting about 60, from around 2300 (when the Excelsiors started phasing in, and cruiser-type Constitutions out) to 2360.

-Gen 4.5: The Ambassador-class era of the 2330s/2340s was supposed to be another leap forward, on the scale of the Excelsior jump decades before, but the technologies weren't quite there yet. Instead, it modestly evolved Excelsior era tech and a new ship-building era was put off as improved Excelsiors were build instead.

-Gen 5: The Galaxy-class era. Because the Galaxy-class was supposed to meet and surpass the leap ahead that the Ambassador-class failed to meet, and was the most ambitious shipbuilding program in federation history, this era came in two steps.

The first step was in the late 2340s / early 2350s when the New Orleans-class, Cheyenne-class, Challenger-class, Niagara-class and Freedom-class entered service. This ships did not have large production runs, but replaced older Excelsiors and Mirandas. They combined developmental aspects of intended Galaxy-class technologies with proven components from the Excelsior, Ambassador and Miranda classes. To avoid a repeat of the failure of the Ambassador class and reduce desk risk, the technologies were spread out widely among these ships to gain operation knowledge of them before the Galaxy-class was built. They share with the Galaxy class, a new hull plating, aspects of a new saucer design and interior layout, and with some exceptions the new nacelles that would allow the Galaxy-class to explore further and faster.

The second step came in the late 2350s / early 2360s. With the design and technologies proven to Starfleet's satisfaction, Galaxy and Nebula class construction commenced. This would open up Starfleet to long term exploration (and expansion) on the other side of the Romulan Empire, Klingon Empire and Cardassian Empire. Instead of making more of the Gen 5 Step 1 series of ships, the Federation also started taking the successful Galaxy-class tech and putting it into a purpose-built design to operate nearer in Federation space and in time replace the improved Excelsiors as the workhorse. This was to be the Intrepid-class, but the Borg threat changed that. Starfleet finished out the Intrepid class program and did a limited production run, but they would not replace the Excelsiors.

-Gen 6: "The Federation Battlefleet-era" was the first era of ships not designed around exploration, but around an increasingly dangerous galaxy. Designed in the wake of the Borg threat, and then accelerated during the Federation-Dominion Cold War, Starfleet again abandoned long term exploration as it's sole interest in ship building and focused on a balance of military capability. Hull forms were more compact and sleeker. Armaments were much greater. The hull plating style of the Gen 5 era was abandoned in favor of some kind of armor. The ships were generally far more maneuverable. Many Gen 5 technologies (including late tech like bioneural circuitry) was incorporated and evolved, and paired with a modernized focus on military capability. The peace time experiment of families on ships was brought to an end. The ships of this era are the Sovereign class, the Akira-class, the Saber-class, the Steamrunner-class, the Norway-class, the Prometheus-class, and the Defiant-class. The Nova-class represented a bridge between Gen5 and Gen6. The results were quite clear: while Gen 4/4.5/6 got rolled at Wolf 359, Gen 6 destroyed the Borg Cube in the Battle of Sector 001 with modest losses. The post-Dominion War / post-Endgame Luna-class represents an evolved Gen 6 design shifting back to a long term exploratory role.

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Basically, I think Ships got faster in spurts. There was substantial increase in speed between Gen 1 and Gen 3 over about 100 years. Then Gen 4 I think, basically doubled speed and allowed for the "big" Federation of the 24th century (versus the "small" Federation of the TOS Movie era). Gen 4 and 4.5 were basically the same for speed. Gen 5 allowed for a real increases again, but only on Galaxy, Nebula and Intrepid classes and it wasn't as big of a leap above modernized Excelsiors except at the very upper end that the ships rarely traveled at. Gen 6 did nothing to increase speed (but greatly increased maneuverability and other aspects of ship design).

So what's the next step? If I were a show writer, I'd make the biggest legacy from Voyager's 7 years in the Delta Quadrant be Quantum Slipstream. I see it as "the answer" to how to get Federation ships around faster. The Trek Literature universe handled it right. It's a very-federation compatible tech that can co-exist with Warp Drive and Starfleet ship design. If the Constitutions made getting across Sectors pretty fast and routine, and the Excelsiors made getting around known local-space pretty fast and routine, I'd like to think that Quantum Slipstream would open up the entire galaxy, truly, for the first time. The Federation one day would need something new for intergalactic travel, and sure Transwarp conduits can provide short cuts. But I think it's a fitting story that after a good central of modest (but meaningful) improvement, that the Federation had to have a ship be pulled 70,000 light years away to discover the means to taking that huge jump forward.
 
That's probably why Warp 13 is a thing in All Good Things, Saying Warp 9.99975 is annoying. There may not be any associated energy savings like in Warp 1-9.

Or maybe the reconfigured warp field has, say, 15 power falloffs instead of 9. Maybe Warp 13 is, say, 7218c, formerly known as warp 9.9988. Warp 16 is now the speed that turns you into a salamander.
 
My idea about warp 13 on "All Good Things..." is that they found a sawtooth pattern on the other side of the warp 10 discontinuity.

Unfortunately, describing the idea is somewhat mathematical. If you think of the tangent function, there's a discontinuity at 90 degrees. But on either side (between the next discontinuities), it's smooth sailing. So, the tangents of 60 degrees, 70 degrees, 80 degrees, 100 degrees, 110 degrees, 120 degrees, and so forth are perfectly well defined. But the tangent of 90 degrees? Nope, it blows up there.

So, by analogy, I'm thinking that warps 7, 8, 9, 11, 12, and 13 are well defined, but the formula blows up at warp 10. Of course it would be useful only if warp 13 were actually faster. And why not? "Where No One Has Gone Before" demonstrated that super-fast speeds, by their standards, were almost in reach of the technology they had aboard Galaxy-class starships.
 
The problem with the TNG formula for Warp Factor is that after Warp 9, the curve from Warp 9 to 10 is a literal "Hand-Drawn Curve" towards infinity.

It's so arbitrary that it's meaningless.

There was nothing wrong with the TNG-era Warp Factor formula, just expand it to infinity and it would've solved everything.

That's what I did for my Warp Factor/Scale 3.0
 
We need not assume warp physics would be understood.

I mean, aerodynamics isn't. It wasn't when NACA studied the hell out of it and came up with all the practical solutions one would ever need, just not realizing that transonic and supersonic didn't work that way. It wasn't when flight went supersonic, experimentation again being vital in providing at least some workable ideas. It still isn't, although now we pretty much understand the basics up to supersonic and merely realize we can't tackle the computational problems any time soon.

Leaving the curve undrawn beyond that which is known seems reasonable enough. The alternatives would be drawing another sawtooth where nobody can attest to one residing, or just plain terminating the curve at some arbitrary higher-than-current-max speed, or then indeed approximating the extrapolation. And the latter would probably be closest to the physical tooth, merely missing the unknown and perhaps merely putative sawteeth.

Timo Saloniemi
 
In general, the AGT Enterprise was heavily upgraded: a third nacelle, an external phaser array, and Federation cloaking technology. With it's new top speed, however the warp field was configured, would a Warp 9.9-whatever in the old scale. So, my take is that a new one was invented, where Warp 10 was just a definable speed (probably 2000c, 2500 maybe) instead of infinity.
 
Leaving the curve undrawn beyond that which is known seems reasonable enough. The alternatives would be drawing another sawtooth where nobody can attest to one residing, or just plain terminating the curve at some arbitrary higher-than-current-max speed, or then indeed approximating the extrapolation. And the latter would probably be closest to the physical tooth, merely missing the unknown and perhaps merely putative sawteeth.
Are you talking about the curve for Warp Speed power consumption to transition, or the curve for Warp Speed/Factor?

Because, those are two different things.

MhMCQIu.jpg
 
My idea about warp 13 on "All Good Things..." is that they found a sawtooth pattern on the other side of the warp 10 discontinuity.

Could it be that there was a new warp scale system used in the future timeline?
What if the old unreachable barrier 10 was moved to 20 for example and warp 13 was something around warp 8,5 or something on the old scale. Changing the warp scale might be usefull as new tech and speeds come available. As they move closer and closer to infinite speed more decimals are needed so there's a new scale.
 
I just always assumed that the AGT warp scale was still the Next Gen 1-10 scale, but warp 9.9 became 10; 9.99 became 11; 9.999 became 12; etc. And the old warp 10 was now warp 16 or some such.

Because it is rediculous for the helm to have to count 9's when the captain is giving speed orders....("wait, did he say warp 9.9995...or warp 9.995..")
 
Are you talking about the curve for Warp Speed power consumption to transition, or the curve for Warp Speed/Factor? Because, those are two different things.

The former, with the sawteeth. And the graphic usually used for presenting both simultaneously is pretty stupid, choosing to portray warp factors as the linearly spaced thing on the X axis when the speed axis could be logarithmic instead (and the speed curve thus supposedly ramrod straight) without stretching the graphic too much. But no doubt the engineers staring at that graphic are more concerned with power than with speed.

Which rather ties into that "it's easier to say this than that" thing. Helmspeople for their part should also be concerned chiefly with power, as throughout naval history, the concept of taking a ship to a speed goes more or less like this:

Guy in charge: "Best possible speed!"
Guy relaying orders: "Spread that canvas / stoke the boilers / pull out the control rods / shovel in some antimatter!"
Guys actually going the work: "Aye aye, Sir!"
Guy relaying orders: "Seems we are managing nine knots / fifteen knots / thirty knots / warp 4.87, Sir!"
Guy in charge: "Very well. I'll be in my cabin; tell me when the speed changes."
Guy relaying orders: "Might be any minute / in an hour or so / we can go around the world fifty-five times at this speed / ????, Sir!"

It's fairly rarely that the ship herself would actually obey orders that involve maintaining a specific speed. It's up to circumstance, and the CO must realize that. So realistically, listening to warp factors won't be any easier if those are defined as integers also above Warp Nine: the helm will report something like "Warp 8.213 and holding, Sir!" in any case.

That is, he or she generally doesn't. Which is weird and calling for an explanation, and the sawtooth pattern apparently is it. That is, even if circumstance factually slows down or accelerates the ship, the warp engines still cling to the power minimum and the associated integer setting. Which really is a throttle notch rather than a measured speed.

Timo Saloniemi
 
Stargate's hypserspace was the best. Never once did they state a speed or specific distance, and it was only a case of establishing if certain baddies had better or slower hyperspace drives.

Trek shoots itself in the foot over and over with it's specifics.
 
Then again, in naval adventures of yore, specifics of speed often mattered a lot. A naval battle could well be decided on one side being half a knot faster than the other; there'd be great excitement in the ability or inability to squeeze another quarter-knot out of the sails or engines. I can't fault Trek for trying that, too.

...Although admittedly the tying of warp factors to specific speeds need not have been done in order to serve this dramatic purpose.

Timo Saloniemi
 
In itself, posting warp 10 as an insurmountable barrier, to establish the feeling 'warp technology as we know it cannot be enhanced indefinitely without some fundamental breakthrougs, and we're already starting to straddle up against its upper barriers, as we find it harder and harder to reach ever higher speeds' wasn't bad in itself for the TNG universe. They hadn't considered the writer's need to continually 'up' specs of new ships to make it sound 'even awesomer!' though. Going from 'we may be able to match hostile's warp 9.8... but at extreme risk' to 'maximum sustainable cruising speed of warp 9.975' in a mere 7 years sounded slightly ridiculous to me.
 
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