Why Didn't Starfleet Command Use Starfighters? | The Templin Institute

[Kamen Rider Blade]

I don't know about that - no pilot, no problems with high g-forces, no need for inertial dampers sucking power from weapons, shields and propulsion...

The Vessel/Aircraft still has structure & electronics that need to be rated, tested and validated for high G-Forces.

If you have inertial dampers, you'll always want it, your Electronics & Structure members of your vessel/aircraft will thank you when it's not breaking after the nth flight and requiring a entire tear down to replace said parts.

And Inertial Dampers have never been shown to be the highest energy consuming device on the platform.

Don't forget that any remote operated or AI vessel can get their signals jammed, hacked, or spoofed.

And any drone will always have to suffer from communications lag, no matter what medium you use your radio transmission, that's why the quickest responding choice is to be physically near by.

If you want to out power any enemy jamming signal, it's always best to be physically closer for increased signal strength from your radio emitting source or offer backup / alternative like using Li-Fi (Light based Wireless Communication) as a alternative to validate signals and send basic commands if radio gets jammed in regular space or the various layers of subspace.

If you're a responsible Drone/AI operator/manager you don't let them lose in a sector and hope they complete their job properly, you are there on site to make sure everything goes smoothly.

Would you just release your wild pack of hunting dogs in some field to chase it's prey and hope it does it's job without watching over it? Nope, you probably wouldn't and would be on site to manage the situation to make sure everything goes smoothly.

...Also, why put the rear operator in the fighter in the first place? He needs to be in communication with the drones in any case. If said comms can't be jammed, then the operator really ought to get the hell out of Dodge and only ever have the drones involved in the fighting.

Timo Saloniemi

You're assuming the comms can't be jammed, when in reality all radio based and any and all forms of communication (in our real space or in sub-space) can be jammed.

If you're being jammed, then the drones could get hacked, re-programmed, spoofed, etc.

We only need to see IRL incidents like Iran using hacking / spoofing of signals to trick one of our stealth drones to land as a basic reason to always be nearby to manage things when you're dealing with attack drones that carry weapons.

But following that logic, wouldn't a more survivable, medium endurance platform that can carry the same armaments or better like the runabout be the superior option to a smaller "front and back" or "side by side" cockpit fighter? As it can be used for at least days on end (vs hours for a fighter) and by re-tasked to other jobs during the majority of the time that it's not needed in the "Drone Commander" role?

A runabout is a larger platform, the Danube-class Runabout is about 23 meters long. Very similar to the Scout ship used by commander data from ST:Insurrection. Runabouts are usually larger platforms, ergo they have larger energy requirements to move them about and for endurance. Also if you have enough room to walk about on the inside, it opens itself up for hacking by beaming a person to the inside and modifying things.

If you place somebody in a F-14 like setup, the platform is far smaller than a RunAbout. That target silouhette is just that much smaller.

If you design it to have no room or space for a person on the inside, you can compactify your design and make it easier to mass produce. You also lower their signature / sensor size & physical silouhette because the platform is smaller.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

If you design it to have no room or space for a person on the inside, you can compactify your design and make it easier to mass produce. You also lower their signature / sensor size & physical silouhette because the platform is smaller.

We're talking about a 'verse where something as small as a coffin (torpedo, shuttle escape pod) can be detected and locked on to within a few seconds. Size is less of a factor than usability and fitness for purpose and the very limited habitability of something like an F-14 compared to runabouts and the like (there's no point in a squadron of drones that can keep flying for a week if your controller can't sustain more than 48hrs of operations (and 18-24 is more likely), runabouts or the Delta Flyer wouldn't have this issue.)

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

We're talking about a 'verse where something as small as a coffin (torpedo, shuttle escape pod) can be detected and locked on to within a few seconds. Size is less of a factor than usability and fitness for purpose and the very limited habitability of something like an F-14 compared to runabouts and the like (there's no point in a squadron of drones that can keep flying for a week if your controller can't sustain more than 48hrs of operations (and 18-24 is more likely), runabouts or the Delta Flyer wouldn't have this issue.)

But most devices within StarFleet weren't designed with a "Stealth" first approach like modern day aircraft.

The Torpedo's / Escape Pods are designed as general objects that don't give one ounce for "Stealth" signature management.

Imagine what StarFleet can accomplish when they actually tried to design around "Stealth" design & engineering principles.

The 31st century TimePod that Captain Archer encountered had some form of Stealth Coating in the hull that absorbed EM Radiation, similar to how modern day "Stealth Materials" and "Stealth Paints" work.

By the time you detected the TimePod, you're practically about to run it over with your vessel given how close to the TimePod you have to be to even detect it.

Even the old DISCO era Section 31 had designed their vessels around "Stealth" principles to various degrees with it's highly faceted designs.

Modern day Aircraft already has solutions for keeping their operators viable while sitting in the cockpit for long hours.

You only have to look at the U2 Spy Plane as a modern example.

But given that you're controlling attack drones, your mission time shouldn't be for more than 24 hours round trip.

 

[BK613]

You are still talking about vessels that operate in the same medium so the RL equivalents are vessels like the WWII PT boats (at about 24m):
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/42/USS_PT-105.jpg

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

You are still talking about vessels that operate in the same medium so the RL equivalents are vessels like the WWII PT boats (at about 24m):
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/42/USS_PT-105.jpg

About the same length as a Runabout.

Which is similar in length to the Captain's Yacht from ST:Insurrection.

Just looking at the side profile, you can tell that the F-14 is far sleeker and compact than the Captain's Yacht.

 

[BK613]

^^It's worth noting that a B-17 is only a few meters longer than a F-14 and carried 10 people. So one could say the Tomcat is overlarge for its crew size. 22.66m v 19.13m

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

^^It's worth noting that a B-17 is only a few meters longer than a F-14 and carried 10 people. So one could say the Tomcat is overlarge for its crew size. 22.66m v 19.13m

B-17 wasn't meant to "Dog Fight", intercept enemies in the air, or take off of a Aircraft Carrier.

B-17 was designed for one mission goal, get the vehicle to the destination and drop bombs only, then get back in one piece.

F-14 was designed to be a high performance aircraft that intercepts enemies at long range, but can dog fight if need be.

 

[publiusr]

Now the tiny shuttle with the up-rated shields Dr. Crusher was in might change things a bit. Star Wars fighters might think it an easy kill…and their attacks would have no effect

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

Now the tiny shuttle with the up-rated shields Dr. Crusher was in might change things a bit. Star Wars fighters might think it an easy kill…and their attacks would have no effect

If their weapons were solar radiation, then yes.

Metaphasic Shields are specialized shields against Radiation/Pressure/Energy from a Stars Corona.

So unless your enemy specializes in that type of weapon, it's not going to be any more extra effective than regular shields.

 

[Go-Captain]

Calling the Jem'hadar Fighter a fighter implies all the ships of similar size are by the standards of some groups a fighter. That means the small Bird of Prey, the small Cardassian ship, and Defiant may all be fighters. It's not a fighter by Starfleet's standard, but the Founders think so.

Another side to this is Roddenbery may have seen the ships in the setting a little like aircraft. A fan asked him if the Enterprise was armed at the rear, and he assured the fan it was armed all over like a B-17 bomber. Besides, he was a pilot in WWII. There are also instances of extreme maneuverability which better suit aircraft than sea ships.

The Federation Fighter is likely some sort of planetary defense ship, called into action to bulk out the fleets. Data's Scout implies they could be personal craft for going into dangerous situations, since it is unusually well armed for a shuttle or runabout. It may be a scout the same way the Defiant is an escort. But, main line combatant? No, despite the Fighters appearing to mission kill a Galor in one pass, though it is questionable.

The Maquis use small craft to the best effect when they ambush a Galor with a dozen or so small craft.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

Going by Human standards, the Jem'Hadar fighter is closer to a PT boat or corvette IMO.
The Jem'Hadar fighter is 68 meters in length, that's HUGE. That's close to 747 in terms of length

 

[publiusr]

SFB might call that a fast patrol boat…

 

[Go-Captain]

Going by Human standards, the Jem'Hadar fighter is closer to a PT boat or corvette IMO.
The Jem'Hadar fighter is 68 meters in length, that's HUGE. That's close to 747 in terms of length

The thing is, even the Fighter and Scout are better equated to boats, because everything is moving in the same medium. Real fighters gain advantage by moving in air, and boats and ships have different advantages from moving on water, just like submarines have yet other advantages. Since fighters in Trek are just smaller ships, they have no advantage other than crewing, though I believe firepower drops moderately with size, while defenses drop drastically with size. That fits with the Federation Fighter and Bird of Prey, both of which have good firepower but die to just a couple hits, same for the Jem'Hadar fighter. The Defiant and runabouts are outliers.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

The thing is, even the Fighter and Scout are better equated to boats, because everything is moving in the same medium. Real fighters gain advantage by moving in air, and boats and ships have different advantages from moving on water, just like submarines have yet other advantages. Since fighters in Trek are just smaller ships, they have no advantage other than crewing, though I believe firepower drops moderately with size, while defenses drop drastically with size. That fits with the Federation Fighter and Bird of Prey, both of which have good firepower but die to just a couple hits, same for the Jem'Hadar fighter. The Defiant and runabouts are outliers.

The Defiant & RunAbout's are the right design ideas.

Compactifying very powerful reactors for their relative size and feeding ALOT of power into a small vessel / vehicle frame.

If they can do that for the Defiant & the RunAbout, they can do the same for a smaller vessel.

You only need to look at the Aeon from the 29th century, that tiny ass little Time shuttle was comparable to the Intrepid class of the 24th century in terms of fire power.

Think about how ridiculous that power scaling has become by the 29th century.

1x puny shuttle like the Aeon hits with the power equivalent to a 24th century Intrepid class or more in terms of damage.

So StarFleet will scale down power reactors and weaponry size appropriately as time moves on with technology. And we will eventually see smaller vessels with incredible fire power capabilities.

Look at how tiny & puny the Aeon Time Shuttle is compared to everything else.

 

[BK613]

B-17 wasn't meant to "Dog Fight", intercept enemies in the air, or take off of a Aircraft Carrier.

B-17 was designed for one mission goal, get the vehicle to the destination and drop bombs only, then get back in one piece.

F-14 was designed to be a high performance aircraft that intercepts enemies at long range, but can dog fight if need be.

Misses the point. The F-14 was one of the largest expressions of the word "fighter" ever in the US arsenal. It remains the largest and heaviest fighter to ever take off from a US carrier flight deck. It's a lot of things but small and compact isn't any of them.

 

[Timo]

This also takes us close to Trek: that the Turkey could maneuver at all while airborne was chiefly due to her ridiculously big engines.

In Trek, too, bigger would appear to mean more agile: bolt a sufficiently big impulse engine onto a moon-sized brick and it can outmaneuver any fightercraft. (Although apparently it does even better when you add a warp engine. Perhaps due to its inertia-nullifying subspace field?)

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

Misses the point. The F-14 was one of the largest expressions of the word "fighter" ever in the US arsenal. It remains the largest and heaviest fighter to ever take off from a US carrier flight deck. It's a lot of things but small and compact isn't any of them.

When you need to pack in that much equipment to meet the range, payload, and speed... well something had to give.

Laws of physics dictate things.

This also takes us close to Trek: that the Turkey could maneuver at all while airborne was chiefly due to her ridiculously big engines.

In Trek, too, bigger would appear to mean more agile: bolt a sufficiently big impulse engine onto a moon-sized brick and it can outmaneuver any fightercraft. (Although apparently it does even better when you add a warp engine. Perhaps due to its inertia-nullifying subspace field?)

Timo Saloniemi

Ergo, the F-14 design aspect, where its over-sized reactors puts out so much power that my Space Fighter has enough energy to do decent damage against a StarShip class vessel for it's size.

 

[fireproof78]

But Starfleet rarely wants a single role craft, and a fighter would be, by definition, an extremely niche design effort. The simple fact that Starfleet can incorporate their technology in such way does nothing in the way of arguing that they would do so, largely informed by mission doctrine, as well as a general distrust of AI.

 

[BK613]

But Starfleet rarely wants a single role craft, and a fighter would be, by definition, an extremely niche design effort. The simple fact that Starfleet can incorporate their technology in such way does nothing in the way of arguing that they would do so, largely informed by mission doctrine, as well as a general distrust of AI.

Agree. Besides Starfleet's philosophy isn't out-shoot the enemy it's out-science the enemy.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

Agree. Besides Starfleet's philosophy isn't out-shoot the enemy it's out-science the enemy.

All those who died in the Dominion War and various random battles where they weren't able to "Out-Shoot" the enemy would likely disagree.

Having superior FirePower doesn't exclude having a good science team.

We have different staff and trained folks for both tasks.

It's not like all of StarFleet has to be dedicated to one sort of mindset, we can have everybody specialize in their fields.

We can also cross pollinate and cross train in multiple fields.

Some just might be fighter pilots, others can be ground pounders.

Others are engineers, some are scientists, some might be in a different discipline.

All folks can work under one Unified/Joint service that co-exists.

And it's not like their is a money constraint, StarFleet craps out shuttles like they're nobody's business.

I'm sure there is enough Shuttle Bay parking spots for a few fighters here and there =D.

If not, we can build ships with bigger shuttle bays and more dedicated barracks on board for soldiers to defend the ship.

Remember IDIC (Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations).

Guess what, there is room in that mantra for the ground pounding Soldier and the Fighter Pilot on top of everybody else in StarFleet ranging from the Doctor, Engineer, & Scientist.

=D