The Wrath of Khan vs The Undiscovered Country

[JonnyQuest037]

I wonder why they didn't just ask Robin Curtis then, since she ended up in an episode of TNG just three years later.

From what I understand, Meyer wasn't interested in using Curtis. Considering how different Saavik was in TSFS and TVH under the direction of Nimoy, I can't say I blame him. Really, other than the name and being a protégé of Spock's, Alley's Saavik and Curtis' Saavik don't have much in common.

I never actually understood Nimoy's choice to have that shift in her character, in TSFS.

I can understand it from Nimoy's POV. His character had been killed off, and the last Trek movie he starred in introduced a popular new Vulcan character who struggled with her emotions in a different way than Spock did. If I were in his shoes, I'd find that a bit threatening. I wonder if there was perhaps some self-preservation in the mix when he directed Curtis to play Saavik so unemotionally in TSFS.

 

[Khan 2.0]

I can understand it from Nimoy's POV. His character had been killed off, and the last Trek movie he starred in introduced a popular new Vulcan character who struggled with her emotions in a different way than Spock did. If I were in his shoes, I'd find that a bit threatening. I wonder if there was perhaps some self-preservation in the mix when he directed Curtis to play Saavik so unemotionally in TSFS.

That he put his own interests ahead of star treks? I could never believe that.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Reportedly, Meyer wanted Kirstie Alley to reprise the Saavik role for TUC, but her asking rate was too high and/or she was unavailable.

Memory Alpha says something else entirely, but no sources are cited [https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Valeris]:

Saavik was to have reprised her role in Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country, but was replaced with Valeris, reportedly because Gene Roddenberry was concerned that fans had become so fond of Saavik that they would react negatively to her turning out to be a traitor. In addition, no one wanted to have to cast a third actress to play the same role: Kirstie Alley had declined to return, and Nicholas Meyer was not a fan of Robin Curtis's portrayal.​

They, too, say "reportedly." It would be interesting to know the truth.

 

[Mojochi]

I can understand it from Nimoy's POV. His character had been killed off, and the last Trek movie he starred in introduced a popular new Vulcan character who struggled with her emotions in a different way than Spock did. If I were in his shoes, I'd find that a bit threatening. I wonder if there was perhaps some self-preservation in the mix when he directed Curtis to play Saavik so unemotionally in TSFS.

In a movie where Spock not only gets a literal rebirth, but is in the title, is the main objective, & had been obsessed over by the fans ever since he'd been killed off? Plus Nimoy had finagled a directing gig out of it? Seems rather unrealistically blind to me, to be feeling threatened. He was the bloody "Darth Vader is Luke's Father" of the franchise, at that point. I don't see it. I think it was just his personal preference for how a Vulcan should be.

 

[Vger23]

Memory Alpha says something else entirely, but no sources are cited [https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Valeris]:

Saavik was to have reprised her role in Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country, but was replaced with Valeris, reportedly because Gene Roddenberry was concerned that fans had become so fond of Saavik that they would react negatively to her turning out to be a traitor. In addition, no one wanted to have to cast a third actress to play the same role: Kirstie Alley had declined to return, and Nicholas Meyer was not a fan of Robin Curtis's portrayal.​

They, too, say "reportedly." It would be interesting to know the truth.

I think it's actually covered in Nicholas Meyer's book (which I own and can't locate), but I don't recall what he said about this. I doubt very much that Roddenberry's opinion factored into it, though...as nobody listened to Gene regarding the movies after his role on TMP.

 

[Dukhat]

Memory Alpha says something else entirely, but no sources are cited [https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Valeris]:

Saavik was to have reprised her role in Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country, but was replaced with Valeris, reportedly because Gene Roddenberry was concerned that fans had become so fond of Saavik that they would react negatively to her turning out to be a traitor. In addition, no one wanted to have to cast a third actress to play the same role: Kirstie Alley had declined to return, and Nicholas Meyer was not a fan of Robin Curtis's portrayal.​

They, too, say "reportedly." It would be interesting to know the truth.

Roddenberry died three months before the movie premiered. And as was stated before, he would have had zero input about the movie anyway even if he was privy to its script.

 

[Ssosmcin]

Memory Alpha says something else entirely, but no sources are cited [https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Valeris]:

Saavik was to have reprised her role in Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country, but was replaced with Valeris, reportedly because Gene Roddenberry was concerned that fans had become so fond of Saavik that they would react negatively to her turning out to be a traitor. In addition, no one wanted to have to cast a third actress to play the same role: Kirstie Alley had declined to return, and Nicholas Meyer was not a fan of Robin Curtis's portrayal.​

They, too, say "reportedly." It would be interesting to know the truth.

As Nicky Meyer had said, it wasn't even Gene's character.

 

[Ssosmcin]

I watched the 4K Blu Ray of The Wrath of Khan last night. I have seen this film at least a dozen times, but this time I looked at it with fresh eyes and got some really good feels out of it. Certain things that I really took note of…

The performances of the regulars are really well done and layered. Whether or not Meyer had to tire Shatner out or not, he got a really well considered performance out of him. Nimoy is also very relaxed as Spock and the sweet banter between these two old friends is really great. I don’t think their relationship felt this natural or warm again. Spock was too busy re-learning, being funny or just “different” in later films. This is really the last time we get OG Spock.

Carol Marcus is charming, tough, smart and brilliant. Bibi Besch was incredibly good in the role and the films lost something when she wasn’t asked back.

Merritt Butrick was also quite good as David and his reconciliation scene with Kirk still hits me harder than Spock’s death.

Kirstie Alley’s performance is oddly stilted in the first 2/3 of the film. I think it’s the bad ADR (this film is filled with bad sonics for the dialog) because unless you’re really good at it, dialog looping can be a few levels down from the stage performance. In the scenes where she doesn’t sound overdubbed, she’s much better. But really, it didn’t bother me when Robin Curtis replaced her because Curtis is frankly a better actor. She just got bad direction.

Khan’s story isn’t nearly as involving for me as Kirk’s. Kirk’s has dimension, Khan has Montalban. He chews the scenery beautifully but for me the real draw is Shatner playing Kirk’s arc.

After this film, Shatner started changing is approach. This is the last time we get the self-doubting Kirk. From here on, the confidence and then the cockiness grows.

Star Trek III is still my favorite, but Star Trek II is rightfully considered the best. Even with the plot holes, so much of it fell into place that those holes don’t really matter. It’s one of the few films that I can start over from the beginning as soon as it ends. Just to stay in that world. Star Trek VI really doesn't hit these heights. It's far too self aware and proud of its own "cleverness" for me. Had they kept some of the forced gags out of it (and made Chekov less of an idiot), it would have worked better for me.

 

[DonIago]

I don't really understand your assertion that this film is the last time we get the self-doubting Kirk.

TSFS: My god Bones, what have I done?
TUC: I believe it's when he and Bones are on Rura Penthe that he confesses that it didn't even occur to him to take Gorkon at his word?

Can you provide examples of Curtis doing a good job as an actor? I think I'm only familiar with her Trek work, and I haven't found it very compelling.

 

[Kor]

Memory Alpha says something else entirely, but no sources are cited [https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Valeris]:

Saavik was to have reprised her role in Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country, but was replaced with Valeris, reportedly because Gene Roddenberry was concerned that fans had become so fond of Saavik that they would react negatively to her turning out to be a traitor. In addition, no one wanted to have to cast a third actress to play the same role: Kirstie Alley had declined to return, and Nicholas Meyer was not a fan of Robin Curtis's portrayal.​

They, too, say "reportedly." It would be interesting to know the truth.

In the TUC article, the same site Memory Alpha also talks about how Meyer (rightly) ignored Roddenberry's thoughts on the matter. There's more there including citations.


Kor

 

[Ssosmcin]

Star Trek II made his self-doubt and introspection a major part of his arc. Star Trek III was filled with focused and confident Kirk until that one moment when he sacrificed his beloved ship. Something he’d threatened to do but never actually went through with. Other than that one moment, nah. He was full frontal Kirk in hero mode. Which is fine, that's not a criticism.

TUC: that’s not self doubt, that’s a guy admitting his prejudice was wrong. I didn’t say Kirk didn’t grow, but he wasn’t plagued with the feeling of being past his prime, making the wrong choices or acting too slowly with dire consequences. Kirk started the film as a racist (out of nowhere) and ended it with realizing what he ALWAYS knew (remember Cheron?).

Robin Curtis gave fine performances in a few shows in the 80’s. I liked her work a lot on The Equalizer and MacGyver. She had a good way with light entertainment. Nimoy did her no favors in the films but she did fine for me considering what she was asked to do in TSFS. Writing her out the way they did in TVH was awkward. I don’t mind if they wanted to lose the character, but since she wasn’t part of the mutiny (she was remember a victim as much as anyone on Grissom), she should have just gone back to Starfleet between films. I feel like the only one to really wanted Saavik around was Nick Meyer.

As far as Kirstie Alley, I am willing to, as I said, give her the benefit of the doubt that it was down to bad looping. But she really comes off a very flat in the first 2/3 of the film, with the exception of her work in the beginning during the Kobayashi Maru sequence. She’s great in the Genesis cave and the scenes afterward. She was, however, striking looking and well written. I just found her more interesting in the novelization.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

In the TUC article, the same site Memory Alpha also talks about how Meyer (rightly) ignored Roddenberry's thoughts on the matter. There's more there including citations.


Kor

Thanks!

 

[Lord Garth]

My dad and my 1st brother completely missed Star Trek V because he claimed the theatres in NYC would have the movie during the day time and then the reels would be switched in night hours for Batman. My understanding was back then the multiplexes were not the standard and theatres didn't keep all movies for their entire run.

I saw TFF at a second-run theater when I was 10. I don't remember how long it was in first-run theaters, but probably not very long. There were a ton of movies I went to see in the Summer of 1989. For me, it isn't a question of "Which movies did I see that summer?", it was "Which movies didn't I see that summer?" The '80s went out with a Cinematic Bang.

EDITED TO ADD: When I saw TFF, I do remember it was an afternoon. But don't know for sure if that's anything to go by. I also went to see The Little Mermaid in the afternoon.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

That he put his own interests ahead of star treks? I could never believe that.

I doubt that he thought of them as different things in this case.

Nice TMP reference, BTW.

 

[Mojochi]

I will never understand why TSFS isn’t regarded better.

In my personal opinion? Because it's perfunctory... token. They had a hit in TWOK, & it offered the chance for more films, but a main ingredient in the success of that hit was Spock, & now he was seemingly dead. There was little way forward without him IMHO. So the next film being about getting Spock back was damn near obligatory, & thereby obvious.

It was a necessary hurdle to keep the franchise thriving. That said, they did a good job with it. It's very likeable IMHO... does the thing justice, but regardless, if you're taking people on a 2 hour trip that is done simply because it must be, it's not all that inspiring or as noteworthy. Getting yourself out of the corner you painted yourself into is not a very interesting plot to have to write

It's not bad. It's just... there... Because it had to be

 

[Ssosmcin]

Well, if Nimoy didn't have such a great time being in the film, they may have gone forward with the adventures of Kirk, McCoy and Saavik with David and Carol in the mix. The entire Search for Spock story was necessitated by his wanting to be part of it.

 

[Mojochi]

Still... A whole film to write him back in, doesn't come off as bold imho

 

[Ssosmcin]

Still... A whole film to write him back in, doesn't come off as bold imho

I was actually glad it wasn't easy to bring him back. It took an entire film and the sacrifice of the Enterprise (as well as their careers) to do it. Bringing Spock back by the end of act 1 would have been a cheat. The film, which gets shod on for being a middle chapter which relies totally on the two surrounding films, is off-format and shakes up the status quo while simultaneously starting the trip back to it. Kirk got his best bud back, but he paid a heavy price for it.

 

[Mojochi]

Don't get me wrong. I'm not at all saying I don't like 3. In fact, as the years tick on, I like it more & more, for a lot of the above mentioned reasons

All I'm saying is if there's a question as to why it might not be as well regarded, my guess is because it's at its core just a filler plot to get us back to our winning dynamic. Once we've righted the ship so to speak, the next film, which isn't any better really imho, is much more beloved

 

[Ssosmcin]

As much as I love Star Trek III, I feel the film series could have been more interesting in the long run if they had continued without Nimoy. If the films were successful enough without him to support more films. Instead, we wound up getting everyone back to where they were in the original series.