The Wrath of Khan vs The Undiscovered Country
- Thread starter Khan 2.0
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Somewhat not related, but what was the period of time between TMP and TWOK. They changed Uniforms between the two (Thank god) so that would lead me to think quite a few years past between the two.
Not sure whether you're asking in-universe or out-of-universe, but either way, I'm sure MA could answer your question.
12 years, according to the official Star Trek Chronology. (2273 to 2285). In the real world, about 2 1/2 years.
The decade of the greatest change was the 1980s. 1985-1986 seemed “friendlier” toward characters of every stripe…Forest Gump would have been right at home between Back to the Future and Princess Bride…Willow…Legend, etc.
But 1982 was dangerous.
It is hard for me to imagine TUC and Silence of the Lambs as being stablemates, as it were…puzzling.
But 1982 was dangerous.
It is hard for me to imagine TUC and Silence of the Lambs as being stablemates, as it were…puzzling.
In Universe. It was about 2 years between TMP and TWOK out of universe.
I wonder if they should have gotten a TOR Klingon to play Kruge. I loved Lloyd's performance and he was a fantastic villain but the rest of the movie was iffy.
Not bad but lacking Nimoy (for obvious reasons).
I think I was able to read the novalization of TSFS before I saw the film, and as such, I was disappointed that a number of the added scenes weren't present in the film (indeed, IIRC the actual film starts about halfway through the novelization).
I think it's a great mirror image of TWOK, but it's undeniable that it also feels like a bit of a reset button, and IMO it suffers not just from Kirstie Alley being replaced by Robin Curtis but also from what I understand to be Nimoy's instructions to Curtis to be more emotionless than how Alley portrayed Saavik in the prior film.
I also find the ritual bit at the end drags...I'm not sure there was any way around it, but it just makes me restless.
It's a film with great moments, but I don't think it becomes greater than the sum of its parts.
I think it's a great mirror image of TWOK, but it's undeniable that it also feels like a bit of a reset button, and IMO it suffers not just from Kirstie Alley being replaced by Robin Curtis but also from what I understand to be Nimoy's instructions to Curtis to be more emotionless than how Alley portrayed Saavik in the prior film.
I also find the ritual bit at the end drags...I'm not sure there was any way around it, but it just makes me restless.
It's a film with great moments, but I don't think it becomes greater than the sum of its parts.
Because TMP and TFF are generally not well regarded, TWOK and TVH are audience favorites, and the "The Even Numbered Trek Films Are Good, The Odd Numbered Ones Are Bad" meme is easy to remember. That's pretty much it.
TSFS is the overlooked middle child of the TOS film franchise.
Yeah, for me too. I mostly liked TSFS up to that point. The whole theft sequence, the Klingons, the fight on Genesis. It all flows pretty well up to that point.
I think they were going for some huge dramatic moment with the ritual sequence but it just didn't have that effect for me. I find myself thinking about how much longer is left in the movie. As great as it was to have Spock back, I actually find that sequence, dare I say, a bit boring.
Having it at the end of the movie probably doesn't do it any favors ("How much longer is this movie?"), but given the premise, it wasn't going to go anywhere else. It kind of does what it needs to do, and it is kind of majestic, but it's also a serious change in pacing from the rest of the film. I don't find Horner's scoring for it very exciting either...again, it's majestic, but also slow.
It's somewhat akin to a sequence from TMP, except in this case TMP has more to look at.
It's somewhat akin to a sequence from TMP, except in this case TMP has more to look at.
I regard it entirely the opposite. It may have been the most personal, poignant & relevant message of any Trek movie ever, that of the parable of trying to define yourself, as age, death & loss forcefully rewrite your life.
They were all getting old... for real, & not in any kind of episodic, sci-fi The Deadly Years kind of way. Real ravages of age happening, but even more, ravages of time... the regrets, mistakes, adversaries of old coming back to haunt you. Struggling with the unfolding story that leads you to your end. Telling that story, one so contrary to what Star Trek would ever do, when it was also something rather relevant to the cast, is a pretty darn bold place to boldly go.
It was so impactful & meaningful, that subsequently they've all been trying to capture glimpses of it ever since. It revolutionized the series, & made it more about the people, & less about the Trek. It took these episodic characters, frozen in their time, who'd been idolized by a fanbase, & it breathed a new life into them, that changed them more in 2 hours than had occurred in all their collected time prior.
So much so, it put a wind in the franchise's sails that I feel like we're still sailing on in some ways. It's the very reason why there were 4 more movies with that cast (& beyond) As much as TMP is a fan favorite among some, that movie hadn't accomplished anything near the same. TWoK was a reboot before we were even using that term. It did damn near everything it could to be the opposite of TMP... & it worked... miraculously.
TUC is just a capper... a GOOD capper. I really like it. It kind of recapitulates a lot of the same Meyers themes, tones, & attitudes, & was a perfect way to bring it all back around for the end IMHO, but TWoK will always get my vote for what's better. TUC would've gotten a major boost though & a gold star in my book, if they'd had the balls to not write in Valeris in lieu of Saavik. That would've been a gut punch.
Oh it has a ton of it. Just follow Kirk's journey, about how he accepted what was offered to him rather than doing what he was most happy doing. How he reflected on his life and looked it as empty until he realized through his best friend's sacrifice that he had so much more than he thought. That while "galloping around the cosmos was a game for the young" it had nothing to do with chronological age. Kirk in the final fade out is a different man than the one we met in the test chamber.
This film is an embarrassment of riches that are easy to gloss over in all of the space opera. For all of the other faults inherent in the films, every single one of the Harve Bennett produced films have heart, growth and a message.
Reportedly, Meyer wanted Kirstie Alley to reprise the Saavik role for TUC, but her asking rate was too high and/or she was unavailable.
Kor
I agree that it would've had much more impact if it had been Saavik (and it would've been more surprising, to boot), but only if one of the previous two actresses had reprised the role. Since they'd already recast anyway, having it be a new character made as much sense as anything.
Well it had to be a capper, because TFF was so horrendously bad. Right after a trilogy where one of the main themes was the crew getting older, the mistake was made to make a film where that crew is right back where they were during the TOS days, even though it was painfully obvious that they were all past their prime.
I wonder why they didn't just ask Robin Curtis then, since she ended up in an episode of TNG just three years later.
I'm also of the opinion that making Saavik the saboteur would have been an incredibly ballsy (and great) move, since the audience would have absolutely not expected that. Instead we get a new character which practically screams 'guilty' simply because of her presence in the film. There's absolutely no reason why Valeris is there other than to play a part in the assassination.
Apparently Meyer wanted only Kirstie Allie to play the Saavik role in TUC, and nobody else.
Kor
Yeah, I agree no more new actresses. Find a way to get the performance you want out of whoever is available that's played it before imho
It's probably because there was a way about her that despite being Vulcan, had a vibrant energy, which Curtis did not carry on with, favoring playing the character very VERY dryly, which as I understand was a directorial decision to have it be that way. It's unfortunate. I think Curtis could've played it differently than Nimoy had corralled her to in TSFS.
I never actually understood Nimoy's choice to have that shift in her character, in TSFS. Spock is not just a Vulcan, & his cinematic journey is no longer one of pure unyielding logic, as can be finally seen in TUC. It doesn't make sense that he'd mentor a Vulcan who is that personality-less. It makes much more sense for him to gravitate to a Vulcan like Alley played, who'd shed a tear, & at one time was even written as half Romulan. That's his kindred spirit imho, & a betrayal from someone like that would be utterly devastating. It would be worse imho than Kirk's son dying.
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