Janeway is like: "I know I've burned down this forest on purpose but I will ask you to refrain from any activity that could be a fire hazard."
Intentions behind Archer?
- Thread starter suarezguy
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Ok, I agree that WMD's for the Borg was a horrible idea.
As for Tuvix, I'm of the mind that it has to be considered Trek canon that you can't deliberately duplicate a person via transporter (nor can you convert one into a 12-year-old). The accidents in "Second Chances" and "Rascals" were impossible to replicate.
If you could produce trans-clones on command, then all away teams could simply have one copy of their pattern stored in the buffer when they leave the ship. If they die, then Crusher and O'Brien simply initiate the Transporter Revival Protocol, dematerializing the corpse and using the stored pattern to effectively 3D print a copy of the deceased from the stored matter. They only lose the memory of the event. Tasha Yar continues to head up Enterprise security, Jeremy Aster is never orphaned, and Sito Jaxa makes the next poker night like nothing happened (for her, nothing did). In other words, the transporter cannot be an Instant Immortality Machine.
So under that premise, with Janeway having to choose between Tuvix and his two "parents"... I can understand the choice she made. I think it was the wrong one, but I don't think it was murder.
As for Tuvix, I'm of the mind that it has to be considered Trek canon that you can't deliberately duplicate a person via transporter (nor can you convert one into a 12-year-old). The accidents in "Second Chances" and "Rascals" were impossible to replicate.
If you could produce trans-clones on command, then all away teams could simply have one copy of their pattern stored in the buffer when they leave the ship. If they die, then Crusher and O'Brien simply initiate the Transporter Revival Protocol, dematerializing the corpse and using the stored pattern to effectively 3D print a copy of the deceased from the stored matter. They only lose the memory of the event. Tasha Yar continues to head up Enterprise security, Jeremy Aster is never orphaned, and Sito Jaxa makes the next poker night like nothing happened (for her, nothing did). In other words, the transporter cannot be an Instant Immortality Machine.
So under that premise, with Janeway having to choose between Tuvix and his two "parents"... I can understand the choice she made. I think it was the wrong one, but I don't think it was murder.
The situation with Tuvix does make me wonder what happened to the data collected on Sim? Surely it was possible to clone Tuvix before killing him. And technology has progressed 200 years later enough for Tuvix to live beyond a couple of weeks.
Consider that Janeway did look through historical logs of Picard and Sulu, it's odd she did not look for that log entry from Archer, Phlox, or anyone else. Unless it just wasn’t logged to begin with, or mentioned in the debriefing upon the return to Earth (and before its brought up, yes we know that in the real world VOY was produced before ENT).
Consider that Janeway did look through historical logs of Picard and Sulu, it's odd she did not look for that log entry from Archer, Phlox, or anyone else. Unless it just wasn’t logged to begin with, or mentioned in the debriefing upon the return to Earth (and before its brought up, yes we know that in the real world VOY was produced before ENT).
You know in Star Trek they've come up with a dozen ways to become immortal but somehow they don't seem to realize it. Instead, you get people trying other ways to become immortal, ways that fail (e.g. "Too Short a Season"). It's a mess!
Honestly, in my opinion, that should be standard transporter operating procedure and crew members should back up their patterns at least weekly whether they're using the transporter or not.
There must be some moral obligation or philosophical issue along the lines of no genetic engineering to keep this from being commonplace.
There must be some moral obligation or philosophical issue along the lines of no genetic engineering to keep this from being commonplace.
The transporters don't work on the whole, "Kill and Clone" principle that was discussed forever in fandom. They even made the Barclay episode to show your consciousness remains intact throughout. So there's no point in backing up your pattern because if you die, you're still dead.
Tuvix's existence is predicated on the fact that for Tuvok and Neelix to live, he must die. Cloning him wouldn't be much of a comfort. It was also absolutely the right call because it was saving two lives for one.
Tuvix's existence is predicated on the fact that for Tuvok and Neelix to live, he must die. Cloning him wouldn't be much of a comfort. It was also absolutely the right call because it was saving two lives for one.
The transporter is a nebulous concept that keeps changing from episode to episode. It's constantly contradicting itself. Trying to make sense of it is a pointless exercise.
Don't believe you are conscious the whole time, or Scotty would be insane by the time we find him in Relics. Kirk and Riker both had duplicates made, and Pulaski and others were restored via patterns. Sorry, gotta disagree, but anything that says it's not working in a kill and clone way, would be the outlier. It's not like it's making a portal from place to place for you to step through.
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True but I think that's because it existed as a special effect budget saving thing and was never meant to be an existential device.
Kirk and Riker notably were split and it was considered to be a shocking impossibility that is the result of space magic.
I mean today it would be something-something entanglement something-something consciousness waves.
That's funny the transporter in Frank Herbert's "Whipping Star" works exactly like that, it opens up a hole in the fabric of the space-time continuum and all you have to do is to step through it, like a doorway to find yourself on another planet light-years away. I must say, it makes much more sense than Star Trek transporters that are a mess of contradicting characteristics.
Yes, the anti-scientific idea of something that happens only once and is virtually impossible to replicate.
I think McCoys reservations, his quotes about those reservations, and the TMP accident, all imply molecular reconstructions via pattern.... It seems like they were pretty consistent for a long time.
Although I will never understand how the beam reconstructs you with no computer or platform at the other end...
Or what happened to the air that was at the place you beamed in? It should be pushed aside but how?
Ah yes, "anti-scientific" in suggesting conditions in the infinity of space are hard to replicate
I would argue the opposite as McCoy's reservations are not, "THEY'RE KILLING THEM, JIM! KILLING THEM ALL!" It seems depicted more like a a guy afraid to fly in the 1960s.
Just sayin.
But as stated, it's a fictional technology so its whatever the writers want it to be.
The presentation of McCoy's attitude in TMP is bizarre anyway. One would think you'd put a little more distance between the scene of a character's objections to the transporter being treated as almost comical and the horrific transporter accident that turned two crew members inside out.
It would be like having a scene in the movie Alive where the group chuckles at one of the survivors professing he never wants to ride in an airplane again.
It would be like having a scene in the movie Alive where the group chuckles at one of the survivors professing he never wants to ride in an airplane again.
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You can tell there were rewrites aplenty there as apparently one of the original ideas was Kirk's longtime girlfriend of the time was horribly killed versus a random crewmen.
Not something you want to just gloss over with getting the band back together.
Yes, TMP is a mess, and Ilia's remark about her vow of chastity or whatever makes no sense whatsoever. It sounds like she's calling Kirk a perv. "Hey, Kirk, the word is out about you and I am telling you I'll file a complaint the moment you put your hands on me." 
Yes, TMP is a mess, and Ilia's remark about her vow of chastity or whatever makes no sense whatsoever. It sounds like she's calling Kirk a perv. "Hey, Kirk, the word is out about you and I am telling you I'll file a complaint the moment you put your hands on me."
The thing is that I'm not sure that wasn't the intention.
The thing is that I'm not sure that wasn't the intention.
I would doubt that, since Kirk never really did anything inappropriate like that, especially with a crewmember. He always pushed Rand away, and was deeply embarrassed at his holiday flirtation with Noel. There is no reason for that bit of dialogue to have that context, outside or in-Universe, IMO.
From what I recall, the original implication was concerning Deltan pheromones, and the unintended response they have in humans. She isn't going to (by choice or by medical procedure) release her pheromones, which are irresistible to humans, which inherently takes away their consent. This is like the Orville's Darulio (Cupid's Dagger) or Lower Decks (Cupid's Errant Arrow) - hah, just noticed the similar episode names.....
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