The Wrath of Khan vs The Undiscovered Country

[STEPhon IT]

I enjoy both, but TWOK is clearly the better movie.

Meyer's literary influence is welcome, but taken too far in TUC.

I like the portrayal of Klingons in TUC as intellectual warriors, as opposed to meathead idiots like they were in Berman Trek.

The Klingons were seen and presented as victims instead of appearing as a group of people who were responsible for their own doing. *Gowron*, as presented, gave me the impression he would never had allowed the Klingons to be so ravaging or ruthless or make weapons of such nature. There still could've had a lot of conflict if the Klingons were the resistance as Kirk and the Federation wants to open their arms to them. When a writer/ director who has openly admitted he thought the concept of Star Trek was ridiculous OF COURSE he would have to sh*t on it so he could make his movie.

We get intellectual Klingons while the Federation were unfit, unprofessional, at times incompetent racists.

*Correction: Gorkon, I meant Chancellor Gorkon

 

[Damian]

Agreed. I honestly hope their presence remain there or with some imagination bring it to what "The Cage" looked like. Something even better properly place it in the JJ Universe, it still remains a large canvas to explore and I would be in open arms for that, but TOS??? NEVER!

Yeah, initially I argued Discovery felt more like a reboot. I tried to separate the 'story' from the 'set design' but when what you see is so far different than other things that take place around the same time that's just hard to do. Plus, I can be a bit obsessive about production design. I understand creators want to exercise their, well, creativity. But I'm just of the opinion when you are working with an existing universe you should respect the elements of that universe that were previously created. Granted, things have been changed before, but there was usually some in-universe explanation at some point to explain it away, or the changes were more subtle.

One thing I liked about Enterprise was that the production designers like Zimmerman and Drexler worked hard to strike a balance between looking futuristic, but 100 years pre-original series at the same time. Not an easy feat. But I appreciated the effort and the result I thought was pretty successful.

Frankly the only things about the ship Discovery that maybe looked like the correct era were the mess hall and maybe the sickbay. And maybe the engine room (sans the spore drive). Those are things that maybe reminded me a bit of something in between Enterprise and the original series.

Oh, and I hate the window on the bridge. I didn't care for it in the Abrams films either. I mean, you're travelling at warp speed and in front of you is a huge window looking out at space. I'm amazed the bridge crew isn't nauseous while on duty

I think that it created a huge amount of unnecessary consternation over set design and uniforms and that the furor over such leads to general dissatisfaction and perceptions of apathy on the part of the production team towards continuity.

True. Ironic in a way since the showrunners twist themselves in knots trying to have it both ways, then they kind of just shrug their shoulders later on.

It's funny to me, to tie back to on topic, that a similar opinions were stated around Meyer and Bennett, and their uniforms and visual designs. It was a departure from TOS or even TMP in terms of visual language and presentation of Starfleet, creating a very distinct identity within the Star Trek sandbox. Yet, TWOK with its uniforms still gets accolades. It has become a part of the background tapestry, rather than regarded as a distinct departure from what had been going on with Star Trek prior to the film.

Part of the acceptance there I think is because they were still moving into the future. You could explain most of the changes as just being further along the timeline. I mean, we can argue whether 2 1/2 years is enough time to totally refit the Enterprise in TMP, but it was put in the movie to explain how the set design changed (and I always thought the Epsilon 9 station control room looks like a cross between the original series set design and the movie design...further along then the 5YM period, but not quite up to the movie period). The uniforms are, of course, easier to explain as you move in the future, whether one likes them or not, you can explain that in universe pretty easily. And as far as the emphasis of Starfleet in the movies compared to the 5YM period, well, that can be explained in universe as well, since military organizations frequently change their priorities.

But that's the advantage of moving into the future. It's been noted Roddenberry considered TNG a sort of reboot of the original series. But honestly, I don't thing it's necessary to think in those terms since TNG starts 78 years after TVH. It's even easier to explain any changes away in that case since it's almost a century later. Set design, production design, Starfleet and Federation priorities don't need much explanation in that case.

 

[fireproof78]

True. Ironic in a way since the showrunners twist themselves in knots trying to have it both ways, then they kind of just shrug their shoulders later on

BTS drama will do that.

Part of the acceptance there I think is because they were still moving into the future. You could explain most of the changes as just being further along the timeline. I mean, we can argue whether 2 1/2 years is enough time to totally refit the Enterprise in TMP, but it was put in the movie to explain how the set design changed (and I always thought the Epsilon 9 station control room looks like a cross between the original series set design and the movie design...further along then the 5YM period, but not quite up to the movie period). The uniforms are, of course, easier to explain as you move in the future, whether one likes them or not, you can explain that in universe pretty easily. And as far as the emphasis of Starfleet in the movies compared to the 5YM period, well, that can be explained in universe as well, since military organizations frequently change their priorities.

It can all be explained away. What I've noticed is a far more gracious attitude towards past works than current productions, which usually results in a "shrug" well that's what it is, whether it makes sense or not. TMP never made sense to me, 2 1/2 years or no, and it still stands as an outlier from TOS to TWOK. TOS is another outlier, which I'm fine with. Ultimately, it will come down to personal willingness to flex with the work.

 

[CaptainJonathanArcher]

Wrath of Kahn!

 

[STEPhon IT]

I'm fine with Section 31 as originally presented in DS9 and Enterprise (and as used in STID). A secret cabal operating outside the system whom most of the Federation and Starfleet are unaware of. Having them crop up to time to time causing ethical dilemmas for our heroes would be fine. Like in DS9 when they created the Founder virus. Most in Starfleet were appalled at attempted genocide--but things got a bit murkier when Dr. Bashir created a cure and he and Odo wanted to give it to the Founders, while the Dominion War was still raging. What do you do? Those are just the kind of stories tailor made for 31.

What DS9 got right was keeping Section 31 an enigma; it was a mystery where this threat could be or it couldn't be or this organization was something else? The less I knew made them a viable wildcard, the ENT involvement opened the flood gates to more derivative crap, I think the characters even had the same outfit Sloan wore. Not very imaginative since it was a so-called 200 years in the past.
I mentioned this in another thread, where I thought the episode "Regeneration" was a missed opportunity where I thought the idea could constitute a solo adventure with Section 31. The organization somehow finds out about the Borg and realizes the dangers this monster, or band of monsters, could do to Earth and we see them go through a battle to stop them; it's a secret war where they cleaned up the mess. By the end, Section 31 understands beyond a shadow of a doubt, time has been altered. What measures needed to be done to restore it? A gift for fans who liked that garbage movie FIRST CONTACT and fans of DS9 seasons 4 thru 7, but what was seen in "Regeneration" was appalling.

 

[Damian]

What DS9 got right was keeping Section 31 an enigma; it was a mystery where this threat could be or it couldn't be or this organization was something else? The less I knew made them a viable wildcard, the ENT involvement opened the flood gates to more derivative crap, I think the characters even had the same outfit Sloan wore. Not very imaginative since it was a so-called 200 years in the past.
I mentioned this in another thread, where I thought the episode "Regeneration" was a missed opportunity where I thought the idea could constitute a solo adventure with Section 31. The organization somehow finds out about the Borg and realizes the dangers this monster, or band of monsters, could do to Earth and we see them go through a battle to stop them; it's a secret war where they cleaned up the mess. By the end, Section 31 understands beyond a shadow of a doubt, time has been altered. What measures needed to be done to restore it? A gift for fans who liked that garbage movie FIRST CONTACT and fans of DS9 seasons 4 thru 7, but what was seen in "Regeneration" was appalling.

I agree I liked it more when Section 31 was more mysterious. I was ok with them during Enterprise as well. It was at least still consistent with their original portrayal (though I agree a different outfit probably would have been wise--I guess they really like leather ). And I can even be ok with STID's portrayal. They take a bit more direct action then they usual would, but some of that can be explained away by it being a different timeline, and the movie really isn't in your face about Section 31. I think 31 is only actually named a handful of times. It's more about Admiral Marcus. Discovery though, ugh. That really doesn't work for me in that case. Section 31 is all about manipulating events and only taking direct action when necessary. In DS9 and Enterprise they would never build their own ships and have their own officers. At most, they might infiltrate existing Starfleet and Federation institutions in official roles. They would never want their existence to be known.

When I first saw the Borg appear in "Regeneration" I thought, uh-oh. Here we go again. But I actually ended up liking the episode. It returned the Borg to something more mysterious (at least for Archer and the Enterprise) and terrifying. And the writers were very careful to maintain continuity. The Borg are never named...and it actually does a bit of continuity building, explaining how there were at least a few people in the Federation aware of the Borg, like Seven's parents in Voyager.

You didn't like First Contact? That was my 3rd favorite Trek film overall. I'm not a huge fan of the Borg Queen idea, I'll admit, though Krige still did a good job with the role. I liked how the Borg were filmed there as well. They were always creepy, but the film actually added a layer of creepiness with the glistening skin, the strange looks they gave, the close-ups.

I think where the Borg went a bit off the rails was in Voyager. Esp. how the Borg Queen started to be portrayed there. They lost some of their mystique. But "Regeneration" I thought managed to bring some of that back. No Queen, and the Borg were back to being a relentless force.

 

[fireproof78]

Section 31 is all about manipulating events and only taking direct action when necessary. In DS9 and Enterprise they would never build their own ships and have their own officers. At most, they might infiltrate existing Starfleet and Federation institutions in official roles. They would never want their existence to be known.

I know you and I will not likely see eye to eye on this one but honestly Discovery works because it shows S31 in over its head. There is a facet of it to me that I agree with that they work well manipulating events from behind the scenes, but there is always a person, a leader, someone ambitious who decides they are going to step up their efforts in more direct ways. Not everyone is willing to wait and see how things unfold. So, while in general I could see 31 being that way, I think it is unfair to paint with such a broad strokes to say they would never do that.

 

[Damian]

I know you and I will not likely see eye to eye on this one but honestly Discovery works because it shows S31 in over its head. There is a facet of it to me that I agree with that they work well manipulating events from behind the scenes, but there is always a person, a leader, someone ambitious who decides they are going to step up their efforts in more direct ways. Not everyone is willing to wait and see how things unfold. So, while in general I could see 31 being that way, I think it is unfair to paint with such a broad strokes to say they would never do that.

But in Discovery it wasn't just one guy who decides to take matter in his own hands. That's basically what happened in STID. Admiral Marcus decided to take a more direct role and ended up in over his head.

But with Discovery it was much more institutional. Section 31 was all but an official arm of Starfleet, had it's own base and ships. They were much more out in the open, to the point officers who had no business knowing who Section 31 even was knew of their existence.

 

[STEPhon IT]

You didn't like First Contact? That was my 3rd favorite Trek film overall. I'm not a huge fan of the Borg Queen idea, I'll admit, though Krige still did a good job with the role. I liked how the Borg were filmed there as well. They were always creepy, but the film actually added a layer of creepiness with the glistening skin, the strange looks they gave, the close-ups.

I think where the Borg went a bit off the rails was in Voyager. Esp. how the Borg Queen started to be portrayed there. They lost some of their mystique. But "Regeneration" I thought managed to bring some of that back. No Queen, and the Borg were back to being a relentless force.

No. Like Generations, our heroes are once again out of character doing a lot of stupid things to support a very dumb plot which was not very Borg. Too many questions I kept asking, why would the Borg prevent humans from warp travel and if so why travel at that point in time and why not primitive humans era, you know during or before Christ's time of existence??? How cool it could've been if The Borg caused the "Distant Origins" humans to leave Earth and created a path for them to go to the Delta Quadrant? Picard, like Kirk in TUC, has this rediscovered blind hatred for his nemesis when I thought he got over it and moved to try to discover the Borg are victims in some way and they have the ability to evolve and be something good.

I didn't like how irresponsible the crew was in meddling with the timeline and how they didn't care to tell figures about their futures and everything. Like a Voyager episode, there were no consequences by the stupid actions from our heroes. One of the fun aspects of time travel stories that are good is when the protagonist failed and understood in the moment how easy altering time can be and take responsibility in aiming to restore time while making the giant task in returning to their time. IMO there should be an admitted danger to time travel and the consequences needs to be apparent. Also, I never like the fact Cochrane was now an Earthling and how he didn't earn his Warp discovery it was assisted by an advance human race from the future.

Borg Queen, I am right there with you and the character only gotten worse with VOY and the matter which I still loathed to this day was the Borg knowing how to play "Lets make a deal?". I remember seeing it with my Dad and he just shook his head in complete disapproval and mentioned, "Only Captain Kathryn Janeway could actually make a deal with the BORG." Nothing but the best of absurdity from the GOAT. It also didn't help FC when I saw the Alien sequel "ALIENS" by James Cameron 1st and loved it. I thought Moore and Braga ripped that idea right from that movie and put time travel and Moby Dick all in there for a very non-sensical movie. A Next Generation movie could've been so much more, so much more but none of them ever panned out to be remotely watchable IMO.
If I didn't hate TSFS so much, FC would be right there, I didn't like it at all.

 

[fireproof78]

But in Discovery it wasn't just one guy who decides to take matter in his own hands. That's basically what happened in STID. Admiral Marcus decided to take a more direct role and ended up in over his head.

But with Discovery it was much more institutional. Section 31 was all but an official arm of Starfleet, had it's own base and ships. They were much more out in the open, to the point officers who had no business knowing who Section 31 even was knew of their existence.

Who knew who they were? Almost all the officers knew that they were "special operations" or "Intelligence" based on the badges and that was it. Only Pike knew (eventually) of S31. And it's not like S31 never had its own ships or bases. Sloan clearly operated at a base, and was able to get around somehow.

So, I think, again, the head of S31, possibly at the prompting of Control, became more ambitious, resulting in an overreach and eventual smack down back to their more reclusive style.

Picard, like Kirk in TUC, has this rediscovered blind hatred for his nemesis when I thought he got over it and moved to try to discover the Borg are victims in some way and they have the ability to evolve and be something good.

Humans do not always react that way when faced with a trauma trigger.

 

[Damian]

No. Like Generations, our heroes are once again out of character doing a lot of stupid things to support a very dumb plot which was not very Borg. Too many questions I kept asking, why would the Borg prevent humans from warp travel and if so why travel at that point in time and why not primitive humans era, you know during or before Christ's time of existence???

I think because the Federation, and humanity, had been a thorn in the Borg's side. The Borg are highly adaptable. The reason they would go back in time to assimilate humanity when they were at their weakest is because it was the most efficient, and the Borg love efficiency. Usually they'd prefer to assimilate a culture after they reach a certain technological level. But I think in humanity's case the Borg came to the conclusion that if they assimilate Earth in the past, then they prevent the Federation from ever coming into existence and they achieve their goals much easier. But they still wanted humanity to be at a certain level of advancement. They'd only go back far enough to guarantee success. And briefly saw they were successful. If the Enterprise had not followed them through it would have worked.

Picard, like Kirk in TUC, has this rediscovered blind hatred for his nemesis when I thought he got over it and moved to try to discover the Borg are victims in some way and they have the ability to evolve and be something good.

I actually can understand Picard's hatred. In "I, Borg" and "Descent" Picard's dislike of the Borg was palpable. We didn't see it as much after "The Best of Both Worlds" because they only encountered the Borg those two times. But Picard was assaulted in the most horrible way imaginable, and then forced to assist in the destruction and death of many of his fellow officers. I don't think you'd get over that. Even in Star Trek: Picard it is evident that left a permanent scare on his psyche.

I didn't like how irresponsible the crew was in meddling with the timeline and how they didn't care to tell figures about their futures and everything.

Yes, I do agree on that point. That is a weakness of the story. Enterprise: "Regeneration" tried to smooth that over a bit by noting Cochrane did tell tall tales because of his alcoholism so he wasn't taken seriously. But it would have been better if the away team didn't reveal their true origins.

Also, I never like the fact Cochrane was now an Earthling and how he didn't earn his Warp discovery it was assisted by an advance human race from the future.

He still created warp drive. It was ready to go. He just needed the away team's assistance to repair the damage caused by the Borg. But it was still Cochrane's baby. I, to, was a bit put off that he was now a human from Earth. The way it has been explained since then is that Cochrane retired to Alpha Centauri and considered that his home. Alpha Centauri was settled by humans and didn't have an indigenous population. It is hard to reconcile Cochrane from First Contact and that from "Metamorphosis"--except maybe both are a bit head strong and inquisitive.

Borg Queen, I am right there with you and the character only gotten worse with VOY and the matter which I still loathed to this day was the Borg knowing how to play "Lets make a deal?". I remember seeing it with my Dad and he just shook his head in complete disapproval and mentioned, "Only Captain Kathryn Janeway could actually make a deal with the BORG."

Yeah. I wanted to like "Scorpion," I really did. It was ok, there is no Star Trek I actually hate (though the Enterprise finale, TATV comes dangerously close, but that's another thread ). But I didn't like the whole "Let's make a deal" idea either. I did like that they came up with a species that was more dangerous than the Borg, but there were other things that rubbed me the wrong way. I think the only Voyager episode involving the Borg that I really liked was "Dark Frontier." The others I was just meh towards and the Borg Queen ended up making the Borg less threatening in my eyes, more human-like. I get that they wanted to add some dimension to the Borg. But the beauty of the Borg pre-Queen was their relentlessness and their singular focus. The Queen stunted some of that.

But all that being said, I did really like First Contact. I'm sorry you didn't care for it. It's not a perfect film (to me, the most perfect Star Trek film was TMP). But it's my favorite TNG film and my 3rd favorite Trek film overall.

It also didn't help FC when I saw the Alien sequel "ALIENS" by James Cameron 1st and loved it. I thought Moore and Braga ripped that idea right from that movie and put time travel and Moby Dick all in there for a very non-sensical movie.

Hmm, interesting. Can't say I've ever thought of Aliens when watching First Contact. I didn't see them as close in time for the first time as you did. Something I'll have to look for next time I watch Aliens. Another great film, BTW (though I actually liked Alien a bit more--probably because I'm also a big horror movie fan and Alien had a bit more of horror to it, while Aliens was more action oriented--which is perfectly fine, a great sequel is one that doesn't copy it's predecessor, but builds off it and does something new with it).

A Next Generation movie could've been so much more, so much more but none of them ever panned out to be remotely watchable IMO

I did like all 4 TNG films to varying degrees. Insurrection was undoubtedly the weakest in my eyes. I still watch it from time to time, and it probably would have been fine as a TV episode. But for a Star Trek film it didn't wow me. There really wasn't anything groundbreaking about it. I liked Generations mostly, but I didn't like the method of Kirk's final death.

And I always say I'm one of the 10 people that liked Star Trek: Nemesis. I really did It was my 2nd favorite TNG film and to this day I can't understand how much hate that movie gets. Of the 13 films I'd probably put it somewhere in the middle of the pack, but I came out of the theater thinking it was a decent film. And it has one of my favorite space battles of all the movies. The sound effects, the fact that for once we see the Enterprise using all it's weapons, and the collision scene was one of my favorites. I wish the Romulans had a greater role than they did, and I wasn't really down with the whole B-4 thing and the Kolarus scenes, but the rest of it I liked.

Who knew who they were? Almost all the officers knew that they were "special operations" or "Intelligence" based on the badges and that was it. Only Pike knew (eventually) of S31. And it's not like S31 never had its own ships or bases. Sloan clearly operated at a base, and was able to get around somehow.

I guess my complaint is more fundamental. I prefer Section 31 as seen in DS9 and Enterprise. A covert cabal that operates in the shadows. That rarely takes direct action and when they do, they do it behind some sort of facade, either as a Starfleet officer in some other role, or through the official branch of Starfleet Intelligence.

A cabal like we saw in the novels--that orchestrates the resignation of a rogue Federation President through official Starfleet officers, but then quickly steps back in the shadows and lets the usual electoral process carry on after without interference.

 

[fireproof78]

I guess my complaint is more fundamental. I prefer Section 31 as seen in DS9 and Enterprise. A covert cabal that operates in the shadows. That rarely takes direct action and when they do, they do it behind some sort of facade, either as a Starfleet officer in some other role, or through the official branch of Starfleet Intelligence.

A cabal like we saw in the novels--that orchestrates the resignation of a rogue Federation President through official Starfleet officers, but then quickly steps back in the shadows and lets the usual electoral process carry on after without interference.

I prefer that too but that doesn't mean it is the only way for them to act. To me, them always being the same, centuries later, is an organization that will eventually either rot, become complacent or attempt a big power play. Section 31 makes sense from all sides. Whether people like a particular iteration or another is a whole other story.

 

[PCz911]

No. Like Generations, our heroes are once again out of character doing a lot of stupid things to support a very dumb plot which was not very Borg.

A Next Generation movie could've been so much more, so much more but none of them ever panned out to be remotely watchable IMO..

I tend to agree. TNG movies were written by the same folks who did the show, but the characters all seem so different … as if the writers had no idea who the characters were. Lost opportunity.

I also wanted so to like the Picard tv show…..but that character only seems to have his name similar to the one from TNG.

Just my two cents, mind you

 

[Qonundrum]

A near-tie, but one thing sets my vote apart:

TUC builds its own continuity and sets up General Chang as a great villain. There's no using previous Trek stories as a crutch, though that's not to say sequels are bad and Khan is pretty awesome, more so thanks to Ricardo Montalban. Chang is a completely original baddie, well-written and well-acted to build up so much in such a limited timeframe and while feeling three-dimensional -- this is no easy task, especially as, by this time, one would expect to see more familiar faces than new ones. Christopher Plummer was clearly relishing the role and knew just how to play it for the best effect.

Both have their own high points, both well-deserved.

 

[STEPhon IT]

I see where Plummer and Nick Meyer was going with Chang but as the movie progress it seemed to me the actor and the director was trying to reach the heights of Montalban. They're not alone, nearly every actor, Laurence Luckinbill is the exception, started out to be their own thing and ended up trying to reach Montalban's bar. Someone claimed Meyer displayed William Shatner's best work which I honestly believed there's some navel gazing going on with that remark. Shatner has done many memorable performances with other directors in my view and like the monster maroons being the greatest uniforms, these blind comments are dictated based on how they interpret the value of the movie itself.

 

[Vger23]

I think because the Federation, and humanity, had been a thorn in the Borg's side. The Borg are highly adaptable. The reason they would go back in time to assimilate humanity when they were at their weakest is because it was the most efficient, and the Borg love efficiency. Usually they'd prefer to assimilate a culture after they reach a certain technological level. But I think in humanity's case the Borg came to the conclusion that if they assimilate Earth in the past, then they prevent the Federation from ever coming into existence and they achieve their goals much easier. But they still wanted humanity to be at a certain level of advancement. They'd only go back far enough to guarantee success. And briefly saw they were successful. If the Enterprise had not followed them through it would have worked.



I actually can understand Picard's hatred. In "I, Borg" and "Descent" Picard's dislike of the Borg was palpable. We didn't see it as much after "The Best of Both Worlds" because they only encountered the Borg those two times. But Picard was assaulted in the most horrible way imaginable, and then forced to assist in the destruction and death of many of his fellow officers. I don't think you'd get over that. Even in Star Trek: Picard it is evident that left a permanent scare on his psyche.



Yes, I do agree on that point. That is a weakness of the story. Enterprise: "Regeneration" tried to smooth that over a bit by noting Cochrane did tell tall tales because of his alcoholism so he wasn't taken seriously. But it would have been better if the away team didn't reveal their true origins.



He still created warp drive. It was ready to go. He just needed the away team's assistance to repair the damage caused by the Borg. But it was still Cochrane's baby. I, to, was a bit put off that he was now a human from Earth. The way it has been explained since then is that Cochrane retired to Alpha Centauri and considered that his home. Alpha Centauri was settled by humans and didn't have an indigenous population. It is hard to reconcile Cochrane from First Contact and that from "Metamorphosis"--except maybe both are a bit head strong and inquisitive.



Yeah. I wanted to like "Scorpion," I really did. It was ok, there is no Star Trek I actually hate (though the Enterprise finale, TATV comes dangerously close, but that's another thread ). But I didn't like the whole "Let's make a deal" idea either. I did like that they came up with a species that was more dangerous than the Borg, but there were other things that rubbed me the wrong way. I think the only Voyager episode involving the Borg that I really liked was "Dark Frontier." The others I was just meh towards and the Borg Queen ended up making the Borg less threatening in my eyes, more human-like. I get that they wanted to add some dimension to the Borg. But the beauty of the Borg pre-Queen was their relentlessness and their singular focus. The Queen stunted some of that.

But all that being said, I did really like First Contact. I'm sorry you didn't care for it. It's not a perfect film (to me, the most perfect Star Trek film was TMP). But it's my favorite TNG film and my 3rd favorite Trek film overall.



Hmm, interesting. Can't say I've ever thought of Aliens when watching First Contact. I didn't see them as close in time for the first time as you did. Something I'll have to look for next time I watch Aliens. Another great film, BTW (though I actually liked Alien a bit more--probably because I'm also a big horror movie fan and Alien had a bit more of horror to it, while Aliens was more action oriented--which is perfectly fine, a great sequel is one that doesn't copy it's predecessor, but builds off it and does something new with it).



I did like all 4 TNG films to varying degrees. Insurrection was undoubtedly the weakest in my eyes. I still watch it from time to time, and it probably would have been fine as a TV episode. But for a Star Trek film it didn't wow me. There really wasn't anything groundbreaking about it. I liked Generations mostly, but I didn't like the method of Kirk's final death.

And I always say I'm one of the 10 people that liked Star Trek: Nemesis. I really did It was my 2nd favorite TNG film and to this day I can't understand how much hate that movie gets. Of the 13 films I'd probably put it somewhere in the middle of the pack, but I came out of the theater thinking it was a decent film. And it has one of my favorite space battles of all the movies. The sound effects, the fact that for once we see the Enterprise using all it's weapons, and the collision scene was one of my favorites. I wish the Romulans had a greater role than they did, and I wasn't really down with the whole B-4 thing and the Kolarus scenes, but the rest of it I liked.




I guess my complaint is more fundamental. I prefer Section 31 as seen in DS9 and Enterprise. A covert cabal that operates in the shadows. That rarely takes direct action and when they do, they do it behind some sort of facade, either as a Starfleet officer in some other role, or through the official branch of Starfleet Intelligence.

A cabal like we saw in the novels--that orchestrates the resignation of a rogue Federation President through official Starfleet officers, but then quickly steps back in the shadows and lets the usual electoral process carry on after without interference.

If you watch the ship-board plot of FC, you’ll see it’s almost certainly “inspired by” Cameron’s “Aliens. “. I remember reading that Moore and Braga actually screened “Aliens” to get ideas.

And I like NEM too. Not perfect, but pretty fun. It’s the only TNG film that feels like a film and not a big-budget episode.

 

[Damian]

If you watch the ship-board plot of FC, you’ll see it’s almost certainly “inspired by” Cameron’s “Aliens. “. I remember reading that Moore and Braga actually screened “Aliens” to get ideas.

And I like NEM too. Not perfect, but pretty fun. It’s the only TNG film that feels like a film and not a big-budget episode.

Hmm. I just never considered Aliens as an inspiration for FC. Not saying I disagree. Next time I watch it I'll keep a closer eye out for that.

I always thought that about Nemesis myself. It felt like a movie event. Honestly I feel that about FC as well. It had that big budget feel. But Generations and Insurrection both just felt like 2 parters to me. I don't hate them, they're ok. But they didn't have that movie feel and they didn't have any significant consequences ( except Kirk dying of course)

I recall you are part of the group of 10. The 10 people that liked Nemesis. IIRC @Smellmet was another member of our elite club

 

[Vger23]

Hmm. I just never considered Aliens as an inspiration for FC. Not saying I disagree. Next time I watch it I'll keep a closer eye out for that.

I always thought that about Nemesis myself. It felt like a movie event. Honestly I feel that about FC as well. It had that big budget feel. But Generations and Insurrection both just felt like 2 parters to me. I don't hate them, they're ok. But they didn't have that movie feel and they didn't have any significant consequences ( except Kirk dying of course)

I recall you are part of the group of 10. The 10 people that liked Nemesis. IIRC @Smellmet was another member of our elite club

Yeah, the idea of the Queen and the “hive” of Borg in engineering were derived from Aliens. The first trip to engineering is almost exactly like the Colonial Marine first trip to the atmosphere processor. And then Picard needing to go back to rescue Data from “the hive” mirrors Ripley going back to rescue Newt.

I like FC a lot, so this isn’t a criticism…but the parallels are definitely there.

 

[Damian]

Yeah, the idea of the Queen and the “hive” of Borg in engineering were derived from Aliens. The first trip to engineering is almost exactly like the Colonial Marine first trip to the atmosphere processor. And then Picard needing to go back to rescue Data from “the hive” mirrors Ripley going back to rescue Newt.

I like FC a lot, so this isn’t a criticism…but the parallels are definitely there.

Ok. Yeah. I can see that.

I guess I just never put the two together because I don't recall ever watching them around the same time and the xenomorphs don't exactly remind me of the Borg. And Data doesn't remind me of Newt

Still pissed off that Newt was killed off in Alien 3 BTW. All that for nothing Ugh. And Hicks too.

 

[Vger23]

Ok. Yeah. I can see that.

I guess I just never put the two together because I don't recall ever watching them around the same time and the xenomorphs don't exactly remind me of the Borg. And Data doesn't remind me of Newt

Still pissed off that Newt was killed off in Alien 3 BTW. All that for nothing Ugh. And Hicks too.

Controversial Alien Universe Opinion: I like Alien3

It was such a brutal, nihilistic turn after Aliens, that I can’t resist how interesting I find it, despite my love of those characters it so callously did away with.