Spoilers What If...? discussion thread

[The Nth Doctor]

Maybe season 2? I was going to say in a future movie but I doubt they would bring an animated story continuity into a live action continuity.

Actually, it looks to be a lot sooner than that, as demonstrated by the post I was working on before you posted (see below).

But Thanos used it to reverse time just a few minutes. He didn't actually use it to travel back in time. Just reverse a moment in time that happened recently. I guess you can get away with that? And Strange handed over the time stone to him so he knew this was all meant to happen.

Only a few minutes but rewinding that history did two things: 1) Reassembled the Mind Stone and 2) Enabled Thanos to commit genocide throughout the entire universe.

Well, the main appeal of alternate realities is familiar things in new contexts, not brand new things. Also, I found it noteworthy that when we saw the Collector's lair in the second episode, the only easter eggs were things already seen in previous movies. That would have been the perfect opportunity to drop in a couple of cameos from the comics -- the sort of thing the films do all the time -- but they didn't do that.

Certainly, but that doesn't mean it can't also include Easter Eggs from the comics. I would be quite surprised if the plethora of mystic creatures Strange encountered were all created specifically for this episode.

--------------
So after watching this episode, I found myself wondering how much footage from the two trailers we haven't seen yet. This is what I found out:

We've already seen everything from the first trailer except for the two clips from the zombie episode.

The second trailer however has a lot more unseen footage:

• Killmonger as Black Panther (saving Stark's ass, multiple clips fighting in Wakanda, his freestyle line).
• Alternate Avengers hero pose with Killmonger as Black Panther, Gamora, T'Challa as Star-Lord, and Thor.
• Hulk fighting a massive group of people outside of a hangar, Banner roaring before beginning to change into Hulk in a city.
• Thor fighting in Vegas, his "Slow down a bit" line.
• Vision's "Every universe is different" line, pulling the Mind Stone out of his skull, turning a chair around to reveal someone's head in a jar (possibly Scott Lang?).
• Doctor Strange's "Who are you?" to Captain Carter. Interestingly, this is the Dark Strange we just met.
• Hooded figure in the Quantum Realm, presumably Janet.
• Unmasked Spider-Man shooting webs.
• Heavily-cladded redhead driving a motorcycle through a snowy city, possibly the same redhead (doesn't look like Nat) throwing a large chunk of debris in the middle of ruins.
• Captain America, Iron Man, Hulk zombies.
• Okoye throwing a spear at presumably Scarlet Witch who is projecting massive energy.
• Massive group of Ultron drones (possibly who Hulk and Thor were individually fighting earlier on).

We have five episodes left. One of them is the zombie episode, but who knows what else is from that episode? Hulk and Thor fighting Ultron drones could very well be the same episode with Killmonger as Black Panther in a world where Stark builds the army of Ultron drones (instead of the Iron Man suit) who then go rogue. Everything else seems a bit more jumbled and not obviously connected.

It's curious that one brief clip shows two alternate characters together: Captain Carter and Dark Strange. Perhaps this is connected to a rumored episode:

Spoiler: What if...

...Uatu intervened?

As part of said intervention, he starts plucking individuals from each of these realities to deal with a greater threat. Captain Carter, Dark Strange, T'Challa as Star-Lord, Killmonger as Black Panther, etc. He brings them to face possibly the zombies or something even worse, maybe the tentacle monster (and both Carter and Strange have already faced it!)?

 

[Christopher]

Another path that led him to becoming Sorcerer Supreme, yeah, but not a path that would have led him to going back in time to before he was Sorcerer Supreme and changing events.

That's not what the Ancient One said, though. She said that Christine Palmer's death was an immutable point because it was the only way Strange would ever save the world from Dormammu. But they made a whole damn movie about Strange doing that without Christine dying.

No, the more I think about it, the more this just feels like an excuse to indulge in the worst, most gratuitous excesses of the "women in refrigerators" trope. In this episode, Christine has no agency or identity of her own, she exists only as a romantic object for the male protagonist, she literally has no cosmic purpose except to motivate the male protagonist, and the only way to fulfill that purpose is by subjecting her to repeated violence. It's a damned ugly way to treat a character that was underserved enough already in the movie. It's the diametric opposite of what episode 1 did for Peggy.

 

[Saul]

Only a few minutes but rewinding that history did two things: 1) Reassembled the Time Stone and 2) Enabled Thanos to commit genocide throughout the entire universe.

I think you mean reassembled the Mind Stone? But did it actually rewrite history if that was always meant to happen? I'm confusing myself here but maybe not reassembling the mind stone is more dangerous because Thanos is always supposed to commit genocide? Like why would Strange hand over the time stone at all if events were not meant to play out this way?

I think it comes down to an argument about destiny Vs. free will.

 

[The Nth Doctor]

I think you mean reassembled the Mind Stone? But did it actually rewrite history if that was always meant to happen? I'm confusing myself here but maybe not reassembling the mind stone is more dangerous because Thanos is always supposed to commit genocide? Like why would Strange hand over the time stone at all if events were not meant to play out this way?

Er, yes, I meant the Mind Stone (stupid brain...Time Stone was involved!).

Yeah, you make sense. I'm just musing on the larger idea of what's "suppose" to be a fixed point in time and what's not. Much like before with Loki regarding what was "suppose" to happen in the Sacred Timeline...and it turned out that's what needed to happen in order for Kang to happen. I'm not saying that's what's going on here, but the seemingly arbitrariness of it all is similar.

But like I said before, there's no good in overthinking that idea when the answer is obviously whatever the writers want.

 

[Tuskin38]

(possibly Scott Lang?).

That's what the subtitles say on the official youtube upload.

Heavily-cladded redhead driving a motorcycle through a snowy city, possibly the same redhead (doesn't look like Nat) throwing a large chunk of debris in the middle of ruins.

It's Nat. She's throwing Red Guardian's shield.

 

[The Nth Doctor]

That's what the subtitles say on the official youtube upload.

Ah, there we go. It was hard to tell since his line is said so quickly that it was difficult to parse.

It's Nat. She's throwing Red Guardian's shield.

Oh, wow, I don't know I missed that it was his shield I went through it several times and could've sworn it was a chunk of debris.

I guess she looks different because wasn't saved by Barton and ended becoming more ruthless.

 

[Tuskin38]

Spoiler

I think she's meant to be either in the Zombie verse, or the one where Ultron won, since you know, all the ruins

 

[YLu]

That's not what the Ancient One said, though. She said that Christine Palmer's death was an immutable point because it was the only way Strange would ever save the world from Dormammu.

Oh yeah, you're right. I guess the idea then is that the inciting event is fixed, no matter what it is. Whether or not another inciting event can lead to the same path is irrelevant to the magic -- being the inciting event makes it immutable.

In this episode, Christine has no agency or identity of her own, she exists only as a romantic object for the male protagonist, she literally has no cosmic purpose except to motivate the male protagonist, and the only way to fulfill that purpose is by subjecting her to repeated violence.

Nor does she exhibit any real personality.

Certainly, but that doesn't mean it can't also include Easter Eggs from the comics. I would be quite surprised if the plethora of mystic creatures Strange encountered were all created specifically for this episode.

Maybe, but I think if they didn't include any comics-sourced easter eggs in the Collector's base -- when that would have been the perfect opportunity -- there's probably some reason.

But Thanos used it to reverse time just a few minutes. He didn't actually use it to travel back in time. Just reverse a moment in time that happened recently. I guess you can get away with that? And Strange handed over the time stone to him so he knew this was all meant to happen.

Yeah, what Thanos did wasn't really time travel but something weirder. It's not like there's now a rewritten timeline where the stone was never destroyed. From the characters' own perspectives, it still got blown up good... but then pieced itself back together on the spot.

 

[Tuskin38]

He changed time within a localized space. Like what Strange did to the apple.

 

[Skywalker]

Thanos using the Time Stone to restore the Mind Stone also didn't mess anything up because...

(spoiler tagging the rest because it hasn't been six months since Loki ended):

Spoiler: Loki

...that was always supposed to happen. It was part of the Sacred Timeline isolated from the rest of the multiverse by He Who Remains.

 

[Christopher]

Oh yeah, you're right. I guess the idea then is that the inciting event is fixed, no matter what it is. Whether or not another inciting event can lead to the same path is irrelevant to the magic -- being the inciting event makes it immutable.

Come to think of it, this episode contradicts the Endgame/Loki model of time travel where altering history only creates a parallel branch rather than erasing the original history (which is how a version of Thanos from 2014 could be taken out of time and killed without erasing the events of Infinity War). True, Doctor Strange showed time being rewound and replayed differently, but only on a local scale.

 

[Skywalker]

Utilizing the Time Stone might make it possible for the wielder to deliberately alter that specific timeline rather than simply creating a new branch from it, which could be why Doctor Strange Supreme's reality collapsed when he broke that Absolute Point rather than just keeping on going in a new branch.

 

[Christopher]

Utilizing the Time Stone might make it possible for the wielder to deliberately alter that specific timeline rather than simply creating a new branch from it, which could be why Doctor Strange Supreme's reality collapsed when he broke that Absolute Point rather than just keeping on going in a new branch.

The problem is that the usual "erasure" method of time alteration is a logical contradiction and a fundamental impossibility. If there are two or more different versions of the same moment in time, then by definition they coexist simultaneously. One does not come "after" the other except in the time traveler's subjective perception, which does not outweigh the perspective of the rest of the universe. So you can't actually replace the past. It will always have happened that way, even if you create an alternative past alongside it, simultaneous with it. The only way you can create a different past is by creating a coexisting timeline. Most fiction ignores that, but Endgame and Loki got it right, basically. And I'd rather see the MCU remain consistent with that. (Although at least one nominally MCU production, the series finale of Runaways, used the standard "erasure/replacement" model of time travel.)

At most, with limitless power, you could rewrite the present configuration of the universe into the form it would've had if a different past had unfolded, which I suppose would be indistinguishable going forward. But that's not actually time travel, just reality alteration.

 

[YLu]

Maybe they're taking the route of the comics: Different kinds of time travel, different rules.

 

[Christopher]

Maybe they're taking the route of the comics: Different kinds of time travel, different rules.

My point is that there shouldn't be, because the idea of time being "rewritten" is a logical self-contradiction. Like I said, if there are two versions of the same moment in time, then by definition they are simultaneous, not consecutive. Saying a given time was replaced with an alternate version is like saying it came after itself, which is meaningless, like saying the North Pole is further north than the North Pole. There are so few stories that get it right, and I liked it that the MCU was one of them. So I don't like seeing them getting it wrong again.

 

[Saul]

Er, yes, I meant the Mind Stone (stupid brain...Time Stone was involved!).

Yeah, you make sense. I'm just musing on the larger idea of what's "suppose" to be a fixed point in time and what's not. Much like before with Loki regarding what was "suppose" to happen in the Sacred Timeline...and it turned out that's what needed to happen in order for Kang to happen. I'm not saying that's what's going on here, but the seemingly arbitrariness of it all is similar.

But like I said before, there's no good in overthinking that idea when the answer is obviously whatever the writers want.

Utilizing the Time Stone might make it possible for the wielder to deliberately alter that specific timeline rather than simply creating a new branch from it, which could be why Doctor Strange Supreme's reality collapsed when he broke that Absolute Point rather than just keeping on going in a new branch.

That's the thing with the time stone. Unlike 'Avengers Endgame' the time stone doesn't go to an alternate timeline/past. It's goes to the the exact same timeline so I think rules are different and that's why it caused such an upset in this Universe.

That's another question I have. We have Universes and timelines. Are timelines and Universes separate or are alternate timelines considered alternate universes? Is this alternate Universe something that grew out of 'Loki' or are alternate timelines part of just one Universe and each Universe has multiple timelines/sacred timelines?

 

[The Nth Doctor]

That's the thing with the time stone. Unlike 'Avengers Endgame' the time stone doesn't go to an alternate timeline/past. It's goes to the the exact same timeline so I think rules are different and that's why it caused such an upset in this Universe.

Yeah, that makes sense.

That's another question I have. We have Universes and timelines. Are timelines and Universes separate or are alternate timelines considered alternate universes? Is this alternate Universe something that grew out of 'Loki' or are alternate timelines part of just one Universe and each Universe has multiple timelines/sacred timelines?

My take is there was one universe which held all of the timelines together, but were regularly trimmed when He Who Remains took over and created the so-called Sacred Timeline. After Slyvie killed him, all the timelines branched out and created, as Uatu says, "These vast new realties."

 

[JD]

Really? I can't think of an animated TV series adaptation of a movie that brought back the entire original cast. Most in my experience are all recastings or a mix of original and recast actors. For instance, Big Hero 6: The Series brings back all the movie cast except Damon Wayans, Jr. and T.J. Miller, while Dreamworks Dragons brought back Jay Baruchel, America Ferrera, Christopher Mintz-Plasse, and (oddly) T.J. Miller from How to Train Your Dragon but recast everyone else. At the other end you have something like Kung Fu Panda, where the TV version has only Lucy Liu and James Hong returning from the movies, or Godzilla: The Series, which brought back only two supporting actors from the 1998 movie, Malcolm Danare and Kevin Dunn, while recasting everyone else. (It always surprised me that they didn't get Hank Azaria back, at least, since he's done a lot of voice work, and the series even had an executive producer in common with The Simpsons.)

Oh, I thought most of the Dreamworks and Disney series brought back all the movie casts back.

I thought the idea was that, as Strange put it, it was a paradox. He can’t use sorcery to undo the very event that made him a sorcerer in the first place. If he tried to, say, prevent himself from ever going to Kamar-Taj, the same would’ve happened.



Has the show so far introduced a single character or even object from the comics that wasn’t already in the films? I’m starting to wonder if they aren’t allowed to — don’t want to narrow the options for any future films/shows.

Would Uatu count as new? I know Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 2 had a cameos by a group of watchers, but I'm not sure that counts since none of them were specifically identified as Uatu. The Hydra Stomper suit is new, unless it doesn't count since it's basically just another Iron Man suit.

That's what the subtitles say on the official youtube upload.


It's Nat. She's throwing Red Guardian's shield.

Maybe she's that timeline's Red Guardian?

I liked this one a lot. I'm a little more forgiving of the treatment of Christine here since this was just a little over half an hour, and barely gave development to anyone besides Strange.
I was surpirsed how dark this one went, the ending especially caught me off guard. There were some pretty cool magical beings that Strange absorbed.
Loved the Strange vs Strange fight.

 

[Christopher]

I know Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 2 had a cameos by a group of watchers, but I'm not sure that counts since none of them were specifically identified as Uatu.

They didn't look like Uatu, either. The Watchers in GotG2 looked white, while Uatu looks a lot like a clean-shaven Jeffrey Wright, suggesting we might see him in live action at some point.

 

[Jayson1]

I think this latest episode was the best yet and maybe has the darkest ending to a MCU story yet. Great metaphor for needing to let go of the past in order to heal. I don't care if the time travel stuff is consistent with past use. It worked well for the story and I can just except it was because of Magic powers or whatnot. What also makes it work is Strange does learn the lesson but only after going to far. Totally a Twilight Zone or Black Mirror kind of ending.