The Wrath of Khan vs The Undiscovered Country

[DonIago]

I personally disliked the novelization. Too many instances of the author trying to explain away things from the film. If you dislike the script that much, don't take the job of adapting it.

Isn't that what a novelization is supposed to do, though? Fill in the things that people such as TrekBBS posters tend to comment on as gaps in the film?

Why did Reliant not notice a missing planet?
How did the Enterprise penetrate the Great Barrier?
What happened to Carol Marcus after TWoK?
Why do Our Heroes go from being fairly okay with the Klingons at the end of TFF to veiled hostility toward them in TUC?
etc.

 

[Charles Phipps]

I love the Wrath of Khan but I also feel that it has been copied way too many times.

TUC at least tries its own thing.

 

[WarpFactorZ]

Why do Our Heroes go from being fairly okay with the Klingons at the end of TFF to veiled hostility toward them in TUC?
etc.

Because TUC basically ignores TFF and continues the story established in the trilogy II-III-IV.

 

[Lord Garth]

I love the Wrath of Khan but I also feel that it has been copied way too many times.

TUC at least tries its own thing.

I don't think it's fair to blame other Star Trek movies copying TWOK on TWOK. I place the blame on those movies that came later. TWOK was trying to be its own thing too at the time.

EDIT: TUC puts up a valiant effort, and I still love the movie, but I voted for TWOK.

 

[fireproof78]

I love the Wrath of Khan but I also feel that it has been copied way too many times.

TUC at least tries its own thing.

TWOK was the original so it did do it's own thing.

 

[Jeyl]

While I'll still give my vote to TWOK, I cannot lie. I love both films. I think Nicholas Meyer really shows how he's much more interested in story telling than filmmaking because he is not doing another 'The Wrath of Khan'. When sequels were rehashing the first film's premise almost verbatim, he took Star Trek VI and did something different.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

Isn't that what a novelization is supposed to do, though? Fill in the things that people such as TrekBBS posters tend to comment on as gaps in the film?

Expansion is fine. "Explaining away" elements of the film in opposition to what the film establishes is not, IMO.

Why do Our Heroes go from being fairly okay with the Klingons at the end of TFF to veiled hostility toward them in TUC?

This would qualify as something that I don't think needed any explanation. As TUC says, the Federation and the Klingons had been in opposition for decades at that point, and TFF was a single encounter between one ship and the Klingons that ended peacefully. We didn't need an "explanation" of why things were suddenly hostile again any more than we needed an explanation of why they were suddenly rivals again after the events of "Errand of Mercy" or "The Day of the Dove."

Moreover, I didn't need an secret Klingon attack where Carol Marcus was injured to "explain" why Kirk was "suddenly" prejudiced against Klingons. The fact that they'd been his enemy for 30+ years and they killed his son was the only explanation I needed.

I found that the TUC novelization had a lot of that sort thing. Convoluted explanations for things the author personally disliked about the screenplay because she saw ST differently, like saying that Valeris' name was actually Klingon in origin. And none of them added to the story. YMMV.

 

[Unicron]

There are some smaller details in the novelizations which I've tended to feel are improvements, though. Like how the TUC novelization has the crew unable to use the UT to talk with the Klingons because the saboteurs disabled it. Rather than the film's attempt to make a humorous moment that, for me, has never worked. Chekov's line about how using the UT is bad because it would be "recognized" (whatever that means) is bizarre.

The TFF novel covers a lot of details that, had they been used in the film, would have clarified things greatly IMO.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

while TWoK is a great yarn well told, but it doesn't really have any "message" or much self-examination.

What?! No/not much self-examination? How about, Kirk's implicit realization that, while he may have made a serious mistake, possibly because of his old age, he still had experience on his side?

Also, love it, hate it, buy it, don't buy it, "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few," is as about as close to there being a message in a movie as you can get, short of a public-service announcement coming up at the end of a film as an out-of-story epilogue. Spock's self-sacrifice is foreshadowed at the beginning, not just in the simulator with his pretend death, but in the walk with Kirk afterwards when Spock gives Kirk a copy of A Tale of Two Cities. Just to review, the climax of Dickens's book involves one man taking the place of another. Kirk literally asks, "Message, Spock?" Kirk quotes the closing lines on the book as he's looking upon the Genesis Planet. Please, the "message" is beating us over the head.

TWOK is superior.

But, yes.

The answer is TMP.

Ah, yes. The OP said, "best," not "better." Yep, TMP would be best of three.

 

[Damian]

There are some smaller details in the novelizations which I've tended to feel are improvements, though. Like how the TUC novelization has the crew unable to use the UT to talk with the Klingons because the saboteurs disabled it. Rather than the film's attempt to make a humorous moment that, for me, has never worked. Chekov's line about how using the UT is bad because it would be "recognized" (whatever that means) is bizarre.

The TFF novel covers a lot of details that, had they been used in the film, would have clarified things greatly IMO.

I enjoyed both novelizations a great deal. Both had come out a few days before the films in the US and I read both as soon as they came out (a big mistake in the case of TUC since I knew who did it before seeing the film...oops).

I recently reread the novelization for TFF and it's a shame more of what was in the novel didn't make it to the film. It would have made TFF a stronger film IMO. There are still some fundamental weaknesses with TFF that no amount of novel writing could fix. But Dillard made the story as strong as it could possibly be I thought. Particularly with the background she gave on Sybok, and his relationship with Spock (including some reasons why Spock was reluctant to talk about it, as well as why Spock couldn't just shoot him since Sybok was the first full-blooded Vulcan to accept Spock for who he was).

I haven't read TUC novelization since it came out in 1991 so I don't recall everything about that. But Dillard did a good job their I recall shoring up a couple of weaknesses from TUC. One is, as you note, a more viable reason for why they had to refer to books to read Klingon. That's an utterly ridiculous scene IMO, at least Dillard gave them an out for that. Still not 'perfect,' but it's not her fault. It's as good a reason as you could probably come up with.

 

[Unicron]

I agree. There's a lot of background on Sybok as well as the three ambassadors, of which I consider John Talbot (David Warner's character) the most interesting. He was a skilled Federation negotiator who had a successful career until one mission involving hostages went wrong, and some of them were killed. Talbot became depressed and alcoholic, eventually winding up on Nimbus III where a "failure" like him obviously belonged. Having Sybok heal that pain would probably have seemed like a miracle.

And there's other nice touches too; McCoy's father died from a disease that was initially very rapid and difficult to cure, with the vaccine only becoming available after his death. Scotty was haunted by Peter's death in TWOK, and Sulu had long-repressed pain from the Klingons launching a brutal raid on his colony while he was a child.

I admit, I haven't entirely decided if the god-entity's influence on Sybok and his mother is potentially a good or bad thing ultimately. I think it provides a lot of important context that the film doesn't cover, but one could also argue it means Sybok's entire quest is misguided and not necessarily a true reflection of his unique personality.

 

[tomalak301]

I think I liked The Undiscovered Country over Wrath of Khan mainly because I saw TUC first and it was the first Trek I saw in theaters. I just loved the story, the sentimental goodbyes at the end, and I thought Chang was pretty cool. I find The Wrath of Khan a little overrated.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

Like how the TUC novelization has the crew unable to use the UT to talk with the Klingons because the saboteurs disabled it. Rather than the film's attempt to make a humorous moment that, for me, has never worked. Chekov's line about how using the UT is bad because it would be "recognized" (whatever that means) is bizarre.

If you watch that scene closely in TUC, you can hear that Chekov's line about the translator being recognized was dubbed in after the fact. Apparently someone behind the scenes figured that hole should be plugged somehow.

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Nichelle Nichols told Nick Meyer that she thought that Uhura should be able to speak Klingon, but he told her on to question it, as he realized it would be a funny & endearing scene. I think he was right, but YMMV.

 

[Unicron]

I admit, that scene is weirder without the subtitles. I think it could have worked humorously if had been executed differently, but I agree it's a YMMV thing.

 

[Vger23]

For me, it's TWOK by a country mile. TUC doesn't even crack my top 4 TOS films. It's easily, in my opinion, the most over-rated film in the entire franchise.

While TWOK was fresh, edgy, genuinely dramatic and had a totally unique look and feel at the time it was released, to me TUC feels tired, rushed and almost like it's trying too hard. It has some nice moments, but the story is flawed and the "mystery plot" was sophomoric even for Junior-in-HS me back in 1991. I thought Meyer's script and dialogue were painfully self-indulgent ("Hey, I like literature and Shakespeare, so I'm going to make the Klingons...ummmm....fans of Shakespeare and have them randomly quote lines from plays"). Even the title is self-indulgent ("Hey, I wanted to subtitle Star Trek II The Undiscovered Country, but they overrode me, so now I'm going to shoehorn it in as this movie's title...because I like the sound of that title even though it's obscure and really makes no sense."). Everything in TUC feels "winky at the audience" to me, which takes away any feeling of realism or tension...which are feelings that pervade TWOK. I also really don't like the soundtrack. Chang to me is the lest gripping TOS movie villain as well. He's just....boring, despite a nice performance by Christopher Plummer. And even "teenage me" knew, seeing the movie for the very first time, that Valeris was basically just a discount-rack Saavik.

It's not that I don't like it (I actually do, despite my paragraph above), but it just doesn't check a lot of my personal boxes. I know there's a lot of sentimentality tied up with this film across fandom, and I don't know why that never affected me. I'm a huge TOS fan (the other series come as close to TOS as TUC comes to TWOK for me hahaha), so you'd think I'd have a soft spot, but the end with the signatures and final log just sort of fall flat for me. So while I do enjoy it, to me it's very average, undercooked, and could have/should have been so much more.

Meanwhile, TWOK revives an iconic bad guy, has a rousing nautical soundtrack, has genuine (non-winky) tension and drama throughout, plays with an interesting sci-fi concept, has the iconic death of Spock, and ultimately sets the tone for the franchise for years to come.

 

[Danlav05]

TUC, the first Trek movie I ever saw.

A glorious final adventure

 

[KennyB]

TUC has always been my favorite Trek since the day I saw it. It is a great little "whodunit" that just happens to be set in space.....they finally had the sets redressed and looking beautiful, I loved the clock above the viewscreen so we could keep track i real time. I love the cut that includes the conspiracy.....and they "target that explosion and fire" scene with the Enterprise/Excelsior tag team might just be my favorite fan boy moment ever. Oh and that dinner party was great too.

Chekov's line about how using the UT is bad because it would be "recognized" (whatever that means) is bizarre.

For a modern analogy, I would expect most humans to recognize Siri if they were talking to her.....it might sound OK but it wouldn't flow right. Working internationally I use Google Translate often and I am SURE that I say things like "We is condemning food...things and...supplies" quite often. I also catch many bugs.

 

[Damian]

It's easily, in my opinion, the most over-rated film in the entire franchise.

TUC has always been my favorite Trek since the day I saw it. It is a great little "whodunit" that just happens to be set in space.....they finally had the sets redressed and looking beautiful, I loved the clock above the viewscreen so we could keep track i real time. I love the cut that includes the conspiracy.....and they "target that explosion and fire" scene with the Enterprise/Excelsior tag team might just be my favorite fan boy moment ever. Oh and that dinner party was great too.

This does go to show you different people look at things sometimes in vastly different ways. What one person thinks is a strength another sees as a flaw (and vice versa).

My opinion of TUC has actually gone down a bit over the years. When I first saw it in the theater I was impressed and thought it was a great film. I admit part of that was my excitement at seeing one more original series film at a time when Star Trek was starting to gain steam, with TNG coming into its own at the time.

But in the cold light of day now? It doesn't hold up as well for me. Of the 6 original series films I probably would rank it around 4th or 5th place now, whereas initially I probably had it in 3rd place.

For me TMP in 1st place and TWOK in 2nd place (out of all 13 films in that case) has never changed. But now, for the first 6 films I'd probably have TVH in 3rd place, TUC in 4th, TSFS in 5th and TFF in 6th place (and 13/13 overall). Throw in all 13 films and my middle films tend to fluctuate a bit, though First Contact is always my 3rd place film overall and Insurrection is always 12/13 overall (if they ever fixed the awful effects in TFF I would switch it with Insurrection--yes, they are so bad I actually knock it down a peg just for that ). Though as I always say, I don't hate any Trek film. Even though Insurrection and TFF are at the bottom of the pack, I still enjoy watching them when the mood strikes. And interestingly enough, opposite to TUC, I find I've liked TFF a bit more as the years have gone on. Not enough to move it out of last place, but it's a fun film to watch in some ways.

There are things I still like about TUC--I always like a good mystery, the intrigue, trying to figure out the bad guys, though I agree with Vger23--Valeris was pretty easy to pin down and I just never cared for that character all that much. I also liked the final battle and the buildup of suspense as you see the assassination plot unfold against the space battle, which was pretty well done. The music score was pretty good, though Goldsmith and Horner would still be my top picks for scores. I do agree with some of the criticisms about Chang, though Plummer does the best he can with the role IMO and I can't help but like his performance despite the character weaknesses (plus, I admit I do get a kick out of the patch nailed to the head--that is one thing I can definitely see Klingons doing ). But the weaknesses of the film that I've mentioned in the past continue to be an issue for me. And there still seems to be a bit of carryover of the silly humor from TFF at times (like the goofy translation scene--which would have fit right in with TFF).

 

[DonIago]

TUC and Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire (the film, not the book) suffer from the same malady for me: they're both whodunits, but in both cases there are so few characters who realistically could/would have done it that there's no real mystery about it. Bringing back Saavik might have helped with that a bit, but otherwise, did we really think any of Our Heroes was going to be responsible? Having Cartwright involved was a nice touch though.

Spock kind of lampshades the whole thing himself. When you eliminate the impossible suspects, all who remain, however improbable, must be the conspirators.

TL;DR if you want to tell a good mystery, you need a number of (reasonable) suspects.

 

[Damian]

TUC and Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire (the film, not the book) suffer from the same malady for me: they're both whodunits, but in both cases there are so few characters who realistically could/would have done it that there's no real mystery about it. Bringing back Saavik might have helped with that a bit, but otherwise, did we really think any of Our Heroes was going to be responsible? Having Cartwright involved was a nice touch though.

Spock kind of lampshades the whole thing himself. When you eliminate the impossible suspects, all who remain, however improbable, must be the conspirators.

TL;DR if you want to tell a good mystery, you need a number of (reasonable) suspects.

That's true to an extent. But you didn't know if Gorkon's daughter was involved or how far reaching the conspiracy was. You could rule out the original series command crew of the Enterprise. But pretty much every one else was free game. I was surprised to find out Cartwright was involved. I do wish the Romulan Ambassador (Nanclus) had a larger role. He was one that was a gimme already since you have to think the Romulan Empire would not want any peace between their rivals. So it would have been nice if they added a bit more to his character to make up for that.