The Glaring Plot Hole of TWOK

[David cgc]

I know scale in Trek VFX is unreliable at best, but Regula is consistently depicted as being teeny-tiny in the space shots. Probably too small to even naturally shape itself into a sphere, unless it was pretty dense. In any case, based on that, if Genesis was an expansion of Regula, Regula would be the grain of sand at the center of a pretty big pearl.

 

[oldtrekkie]

I know scale in Trek VFX is unreliable at best, but Regula is consistently depicted as being teeny-tiny in the space shots. Probably too small to even naturally shape itself into a sphere, unless it was pretty dense. In any case, based on that, if Genesis was an expansion of Regula, Regula would be the grain of sand at the center of a pretty big pearl.

If it's so small it should have very little gravity. People wouldn't be able to walk the way they do on Earth. They'd keep taking off and flying and slowly coming down... Look how the astronauts walk on the Moon for example, except worse because on the Moon there's no air so the planning effect is minimal. Running would guarantee that you'd spend long periods in the air. So the planet would have to be extremely dense to compensate (The Earth has already a density of 5.5), a density superior to that of the densest materials we know of!

 

[David cgc]

If it's so small it should have very little gravity. People wouldn't be able to walk the way they do on Earth. They'd keep taking off and flying and slowly coming down... Look how the astronauts walk on the Moon for example, except worse because on the Moon there's no air so the planning effect is minimal. Running would guarantee that you'd spend long periods in the air. So the planet would have to be extremely dense to compensate (The Earth has already a density of 5.5), a density superior to that of the densest materials we know of!

The Starfleet Corps of Engineers could've added a gravity generator when they cut out the tunnels.

 

[oldtrekkie]

The Starfleet Corps of Engineers could've added a gravity generator when they cut out the tunnels.

For an entire planet? That'd have to be a humongous one!

 

[David cgc]

For an entire planet? That'd have to be a humongous one!

The only time we see people in Regula is in the caves. They could be walking around the inside of a hollow sphere for all we know. For the Genesis planet itself, I was supporting the argument that Regular isn't the core of Genesis, and even if it was, it was such a small amount of the mass as to make no difference and most of it would've still been pulled in from the nebula.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

One of the confusing things is that they had this pretty explicit (and pretty) animation showing what Genesis is supposed to do earlier in the film. I'm sure everybody remembers it. It reforms planets. Explicitly planets that are already there. Then when it finally goes off, it does something far beyond merely that. Something not even hinted at in the presentation.

And you don't see the planet coalescing. You see it molten, having already coalesced. So, yeah, I stand by what I said above: I'll forgive the audience member who was confused as to whether it was Regula. It was anything but clear.

 

[DonIago]

It does seem as though if the E needed warp drive to escape the Genesis Wave, and it had entered the nebula from Regula under impulse power, then Regula should have been encompassed by the wave, unless it was more about escaping radiation from the wave or such, versus being converted into planetary stuff.

OTOH, the TSFS novelization has scenes set on Regula One and in the Genesis Cave, which is at odds with what I said above. Of course, the novel isn't canon, and perhaps the logic here wasn't well thought-out or such.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

It does seem as though if the E needed warp drive to escape the Genesis Wave, and it had entered the nebula from Regula under impulse power, then Regula should have been encompassed by the wave

That too. And let's not get started on the fact in real life nebulae are many light years across. That single tidbit is gonna undermine and/or confuse things in several ways at least.

 

[Pauln6]

That too. And let's not get started on the fact in real life nebulae are many light years across. That single tidbit is gonna undermine and/or confuse things in several ways at least.

Yeah nebulae are visible from great distances but are generally quite diffuse if you are inside them but they do clump together in denser patches and form stars, which then form planets.

Still, I suppose no reason we can't have a sci fi nebula that follows different rules. An asteroid belt would have made more sense but starships are a bit clunky to make that look good, hence the submarine fight.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Yeah nebulae are visible from great distances but are generally quite diffuse if you are inside them but they do clump together in denser patches and form stars, which then form planets.

Still, I suppose no reason we can't have a sci fi nebula that follows different rules. An asteroid belt would have made more sense but starships are a bit clunky to make that look good, hence the submarine fight.

And speaking of scale, in the asteroid belt in our solar system, the mean distance between asteroids is on the order of half a million miles. The asteroid field in The Empire Strikes Back it is not.

 

[Pauln6]

And speaking of scale, in the asteroid belt in our solar system, the mean distance between asteroids is on the order of half a million miles. The asteroid field in The Empire Strikes Back it is not.

Ok so a sci fi asteroid belt full of magnetised dust and [insert technobabble] gas would have made more sense than a Nebula.

 

[Timo]

As regards the eventual Genesis Planet, the matte painting of the icy sunset suggests a really compact little ball, with weird curvature and whatnot. (Not to mention the same horizon next frames a sunrise!)

And we explicitly hear that gravity is in flux on this rock, so it being abnormal for a sphere of a given size is no biggie.

Our sidekicks also easily cross from one environmental zone to another, although arguably it's the zones doing the moving, as per the cactus covered in snow.

FWIW, the lifeless rock in the simulation is positively tiny in comparison with the craters on her surface. Might be this is what defines the ideal test target for Genesis, and perhaps the ideal end result as well. (Ceti Alpha V/VI probably wouldn't meet these size criteria, though.)

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Smellmet]

I always took it that the genesis wave transformed Regula and the nebula into a living planet, as by the end of the film, both have disappeared. That just leaves the star to explain I guess.

 

[Timo]

It would have to be the Regula star unless we also explain how that one disappeared... No double shadows on the planet or the ships! After an impulse run of scant minutes, Regula still ought to be close enough to shine brightly, even if possibly not quite the size of the star we see.

The nebula seems to disappear/dissipate at the very moment the Reliant explodes (due to VFX limitations). Genesis Effect propagating? Explosion pushing the gases away, due to Genesis making the ship explode, whilst the Genesis Wave only follows a few moments later? And what to make of the smoke rings that the Enterprise flies through on her way to safety? Compression waves from warping inside the outer remnants of the nebula? Funnily directional Genesis effects chasing the ship? Death Star Explosion type rings of no particular directionality, coincidentally looking as if related to the ship's path?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[DonIago]

Maybe the subspace field created by the E's warp drive "dragged" the Genesis Wave toward it (he said with tongue somewhat in-cheek).

 

[Timo]

Or the warp drive, so hastily repaired, belched out warp smoke? A bit like the E-E does when she goes to warp, only worse.

It's one of the coolest effects in the movie, really, with a sense of silent dread at the awesome power of Genesis. The nebula remains in the background despite having been absent when Khan's ship exploded - but perhaps it was always a complex 3D web of wisps and pseudopods and lacunae in between, and the camera caught a rare hole into the darkess of surrounding space during the explosion...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[oldtrekkie]

There is a glaring plot hole that has yet to be addressed. How did Khan know that the Enterprise couldn't get away? Or that she wouldn't warp away the next moment? Don't tell me that he has some sixth sense that allows him to know these things just by looking at the ship because that sense wasn't working the numerous times he was duped in the movie. Yet Khan acts as if he knew that the Enterprise had difficulties with its warp drive... As I said before, Khan had already behaved like someone below average in this movie. I had a hard time accepting him as the genius who allowed his team to survive on dirt for many years. But now all of a sudden he got all his smarts back with some impossible supplemental aptitude to boot and knows the state of the Enterprise... please!!

 

[CorporalCaptain]

There is a glaring plot hole that has yet to be addressed. How did Khan know that the Enterprise couldn't get away? Or that she wouldn't warp away the next moment? Don't tell me that he has some sixth sense that allows him to know these things just by looking at the ship because that sense wasn't working the numerous times he was duped in the movie. Yet Khan acts as if he knew that the Enterprise had difficulties with its warp drive... As I said before, Khan had already behaved like someone below average in this movie. I had a hard time accepting him as the genius who allowed his team to survive on dirt for many years. But now all of a sudden he got all his smarts back with some impossible supplemental aptitude to boot and knows the state of the Enterprise... please!!

Because he's familiar with what kind of damage his ship did to the Enterprise, because he's witnessed them being unable to use the warp drive since, and because he's continuing to see them being unable to use the warp drive? Oh, yeah, and he heard them communicate in code about the warp drive being out, and it still really seems to be... out. Just taking a stab at it.

 

[oldtrekkie]

Because he's familiar with what kind of damage his ship did to the Enterprise, because he's witnessed them being unable to use the warp drive since, and because he's continuing to see them being unable to use the warp drive? Oh, yeah, and he heard them communicate in code about the warp drive being out, and it still really seems to be... out. Just taking a stab at it.

As I said, it would have been much easier to accept if he hadn't been duped previously, not to mention being saved from his own stupidity by his faithful second in command. If not for this guy his ship would have been destroyed much earlier.

 

[Damian]

As I said, it would have been much easier to accept if he hadn't been duped previously, not to mention being saved from his own stupidity by his faithful second in command. If not for this guy his ship would have been destroyed much earlier.

Earlier Spock had noted Khan knew just where to hit them. He wasn't experienced and didn't take into account some things, but I don't think he had to be a super-genius to figure out he had crippled the Enterprise. There was enough empirical evidence to show him the ship had no warp power.