What are your controversial Star Trek opinions?

[Orphalesion]

And yet...there is a warmth to this film. And I think the original premise ("Search for God, find the Devil") is a compelling one.

But how many "Oh look we found god but it's really just a powerful alien" storylines does Trek need? I feel that "premise" was covered the first four or five times they used that trope. And it's not very intriguing or original either.

And no, I don't see any warmth to that movie, the camp scenes with the horrible singing just make me cringe.
Really the only half-way intriguing thing about the whole movie was Paradise City, and I'd bet event hat just owes its existence to Mos Eisley and the popularity of Post-Apocalyptic movies and imagery in the 1980s.

But to each their own.

1. The campfire scenes.

No. As I said above, I freaking hate those campfire scenes. The singing makes me want to throw up. And I'm not really interested in the relationship between those three characters.

 

[Vger23]

But how many "Oh look we found god but it's really just a powerful alien" storylines does Trek need? I feel that "premise" was covered the first four or five times they used that trope. And it's not very intriguing or original either.

And no, I don't see any warmth to that movie, the camp scenes with the horrible singing just make me cringe.
Really the only half-way intriguing thing about the whole movie was Paradise City, and I'd bet event hat just owes its existence to Mos Eisley and the popularity of Post-Apocalyptic movies and imagery in the 1980s.

But to each their own.



No. As I said above, I freaking hate those campfire scenes. The singing makes me want to throw up. And I'm not really interested in the relationship between those three characters.

Well, respectfully, you don’t really like TOS…so it comes as no surprise that the film that is actually most like TOS and focuses heavily on the main characters is one that wouldn’t particularly resonate with you personally.

In my opinion, TFF is above all the TNG movies and 2 of the TOS movies, making it a better-than-average outing and one that I revisit most often.

The story suffers some under-cooking (see also: TUC), the humor is thematically misplaced oftentimes, and the visual fx range from “occasionally competent” to “absolutely embarrassing.” But it has an adventurous spirit, great character moments (which sure as heck aren’t going to resonate if you don’t like the characters already), a dynamic/energetic style that wasn’t seen before or again until 2009, some brilliant cinematography (only TMP and GEN are in the same league), and an outstanding musical score. It has heart and is unapologetic about it. It also has the best “guest antagonist” aside from Khan in the entire film series…a character with an actual unique and personal motivation and a non-cliché personality who, in the best traditions of Trek, wasn’t really a “villain” at all.

All of the positive elements present in TFF is why I originally started watching Star Trek. I didn’t start out looking for “intelligent meaningful science fiction with thought-provoking messages and moralizing.” And frankly, I still don’t care about that. I signed on because TOS was dynamic and colorful, had characters I loved, was weird/Twilight Zone-ish, and had a spirit of fun and action/adventure. That to me is what TFF had across-the-board, and given my biases and personal tastes, means I’d take it any day over more than half the other films in the franchise. And I love them all to varying degrees.

 

[cooleddie74]

And I'm not really interested in the relationship between those three characters.

But...that's most of TOS. And the TOS Movies. And the Kelvin Timeline films.

 

[1001001]

But...that's most of TOS. And the TOS Movies. And the Kelvin Timeline films.

Beyond captured that dynamic nicely.

 

[cooleddie74]

Even bad episodes of TOS captured that dynamic. "Spock's Brain" is essentially Kirk and McCoy reaching out to superhuman lengths to save their friend from death, a theme that would be repeated and done so, so much better in TSFS.

 

[Vger23]

TFF really suffers from poor special effects. The scene where Kirk falls off El Capitan is particularly amateurish.

And yes, Sybok being Spock's brother was pointless (really added nothing to the story. Sybok easily could have been a kid Spock went to school with or something). They could have cut the Klingon ship thing out completely.

And yet...there is a warmth to this film. And I think the original premise ("Search for God, find the Devil") is a compelling one.

I don't know. I manage to enjoy this film despite it's many flaws. I would watch 100 times in a row before I sat through TMP again.

I think that making Sybok Spock’s half-brother put Spock in a very interesting place between his “now family” and his biological family. A big theme of the film is actually “brotherhood,” and I think TFF attempts to explore (not always coherently, but it is most certainly there) the love and bonds between family and longtime friends. For Spock, it is a “walk the line” story, very similar to what Worf goes through in “Heart of Glory.” The payoff is at the end, when Spock gently but firmly reaffirms to Sybok that his current “family” bond of Kirk and McCoy is stronger and more meaningful, and that Sybok’s mind control attempt only re-affirmed that bond and his ability to move past his former family-related pains because of his relationships with them.

The “search for God” premise is interesting in that it shows how the belief in a divine source can often lead to ruin if ones ego and blind devotion are in the way. Many take it as an “anti-faith” message, but I don’t. Instead, I view it as a cautionary tale that taking a concept like the search for “ultimate meaning/ the supreme being” and turning it into something about ego like Sybok did is a destructive path, and believing (my arrogance, my vanity) we have any true capability of understanding and being on the same level as these mysteries is dangerous. It was very clever not to say “God is real” or “God is fake,” but it kind of said that we should not have the arrogance to think we can know or “find” such a thing that would be so far beyond us, and the best way we have of exploring spirituality is perhaps through our human relationships (particularly family and friends)and within our own hearts, while also facing and integrating our “pain” as valuable parts of the human learning experience (I need my pain).

It’s fitting that Sybok finds a false God / evil being at the end of his quest. It is illustrative of how easily people can be led astray by evil masquerading as “good” (or in this case, the power that evil can have to take advantage of things like faith, perverting it to serve their purpose). It paints Sybok as a victim, not as “the cult leader,” so to speak. He was just as weak and manipulated as those in his army, and it is a tragic lesson.

Anyway….whew…probably went a little too deep on that one. Apologies all around.

 

[fireproof78]

And yes, Sybok being Spock's brother was pointless (really added nothing to the story. Sybok easily could have been a kid Spock went to school with or something). They could have cut the Klingon ship thing out completely.

Honestly, it would have been a bit more interesting if Sybok had been one of the former bullies who had teased Spock for being a "half breed" like in TAS.

But how many "Oh look we found god but it's really just a powerful alien" storylines does Trek need?

As many as it wants. As far as plot lines go it's pretty standard and is actually very interesting. Certainly enough that we keep on talking about it as a fan base.

I think that making Sybok Spock’s half-brother put Spock in a very interesting place between his “now family” and his biological family. A big theme of the film is actually “brotherhood,” and I think TFF attempts to explore (not always coherently, but it is most certainly there) the love and bonds between family and longtime friends. For Spock, it is a “walk the line” story, very similar to what Worf goes through in “Heart of Glory.” The payoff is at the end, when Spock gently but firmly reaffirms to Sybok that his current “family” bond of Kirk and McCoy is stronger and more meaningful, and that Sybok’s mind control attempt only re-affirmed that bond and his ability to move past his former family-related pains because of his relationships with them.

I agree on this point, though, as I said with 1001001 up above, I think it could have been an interesting juxtaposition of Spock resolving the conflict in the past, of putting that pain behind him of being "so human" as shown in the vision, which would have tied in to Sybok being a bully in the past. Potentially, it could be a place of manipulation on Sybok's part where he's like "I know I gave you a hard time over emotions but I was wrong."

I mean, the dynamic of Sybok and Spock works well enough in the film as is, but I like the thought experiment. In any case, your post was great...after my morning coffee

 

[F. King Daniel]

Into Darkness is a fantastic movie. Final Frontier is really good, too. Fight me.

Insurrection is a white conservative version of Avatar.

 

[Oddish]

Insurrection is a white conservative version of Avatar.

Could anything be a conservative version of "Avatar"?

 

[F. King Daniel]

Also as for the comments about Final Frontier's special effects... what about TOS? It looks far, far worse. Even with the iffy CG "upgrade"

 

[GNDN18]

what about TOS? It looks far, far worse.

The state of the art advancing by twenty years and a 99.004% increase in budget might be some things to consider.

 

[F. King Daniel]

The state of the art advancing by twenty years and a 99.004% increase in budget might be some things to consider.

Most fans fell in love with Kirk and Spock on the Enterprise in TOS and it looked like shit. In fact it looks even worse now since the new CG looks like it was rendered on a PS2. The FX quality should not be ingrained in our love of TOS things.

 

[cooleddie74]

TOS looked as good as network TV sci-fi effects could for 1966-69. Most other shows at the time looked considerably worse or deliberately cheesier. For TFF To look that bad in 1989 is the fault of hiring Bran Ferren. A competent man, but not one whose firm was designed to handle a big-budget franchise film.

 

[Vger23]

TOS looked as good as network TV sci-fi effects could for 1966-69. Most other shows at the time looked considerably worse or deliberately cheesier. For TFF To look that bad in 1989 is the fault of hiring Bran Ferren. A competent man, but not one whose firm was designed to handle a big-budget franchise film.

They had no idea how to do the motion control model work, and it shows badly.

 

[cooleddie74]

Yeah, TFF has almost no dynamic shots of spacecraft in motion and many shots look so one-dimensional. The shuttlecraft scenes in the film are the best sequences of a spacecraft in motion.

 

[GNDN18]

They had no idea how to do the motion control model work, and it shows badly.

So I’ve heard.

ETA I thought you meant TOS. Never mind.

 

[Jack Wolfe]

Yeah, TFF has almost no dynamic shots of spacecraft in motion and many shots look so one-dimensional. The shuttlecraft scenes in the film are the best sequences of a spacecraft in motion.

No wonder so many shots of the Enterprise looked slightly better than stop-motion paper cutouts.

 

[fireproof78]

Yeah, TFF has almost no dynamic shots of spacecraft in motion and many shots look so one-dimensional. The shuttlecraft scenes in the film are the best sequences of a spacecraft in motion.

And the scene still strained credulity with no emergency landing plan.

 

[eschaton]

On the subject of TFF, I really appreciated that Sybok was an antagonist, but not a villain in any sense of the term.

 

[Gingerbread Demon]

I think The Motion Picture was one of the best of the original cast movies.