Ive been doing a re-watch of DS9 and i just finished Hard Time. I havent seen this one in years, probably before my first child was born. When O'Brien almost strikes Molly, wow did that hit me emotionally. Along with the whole ending scene between O'Brien and Bashir. Just amazing acting all around. Now that I have children (3 to be precise, ages 3 to 7) all i could picture is seeing myself in O'Brien's shoes when he almost hits Molly. And picturing my little 3 year old girl Elizabeth. Its amazing how my own life experiences can impact how i see an episode of Trek versus how i used to see it. Anyone else ever had that experience?
Episode Hard Time New Meaning
- Thread starter indianatrekker26
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I've noticed that many parents become more senative to violence against children once they have children of their own. However,there is more being accomplished in this scene. Through his acting, Colm Meaney makes me feel ashamed for threatening his daughter. The writing and the acting underline how selfish it can be to be angered by what our children do.
Agreed. I think this was some of the best acting of Colm Meaney on DS9. A very powerful episode. One that i found boring 20+ years ago, when all i wanted was "pew pew" out of trek.
1. I still totally don't get why Miles's memories of the event couldn't simply be erased. Even if they didn't get it all, they could reduce enough of it to a blur, the emotional damage would be reduced. As Troi says, even a partial recovery could have given him some peace.
2. My head canon is that that particular race pulled their "prison memories" crap on a visiting Klingon next, and the Klingons responded by beaming down an assault team with bat'leths and disruptors. The people who ran that "prison" complex had a REALLY bad day at the office.
3. Though I'm not a parent and never will be one, I have cared for the children of others, and still do (just in a different way). I can totally understand how you would see that scene in a new light.
2. My head canon is that that particular race pulled their "prison memories" crap on a visiting Klingon next, and the Klingons responded by beaming down an assault team with bat'leths and disruptors. The people who ran that "prison" complex had a REALLY bad day at the office.
3. Though I'm not a parent and never will be one, I have cared for the children of others, and still do (just in a different way). I can totally understand how you would see that scene in a new light.
That’s a problem with the premise of the episode. That kind of punishment may work on people with normal emotions, but to a sociopath they will see it as a glorified spanking. Or might even enjoy torturing their virtual roommate.
Even non sociopaths might have ways to prepare themselves to be emotionally detached knowing time isn’t really moving forward and when they get out their life and their family is waiting for them just where they left it.
Their punishment method is all the cruelty with none of the deterrence.
Even non sociopaths might have ways to prepare themselves to be emotionally detached knowing time isn’t really moving forward and when they get out their life and their family is waiting for them just where they left it.
Their punishment method is all the cruelty with none of the deterrence.
For many prison systems, the cruelty is the deterrence. If you ever read "Catch Me if You Can", there's a scene where Frank Abagnale gets sent to a French prison. It's... not for the faint of heart.
I’ve seen the movie but I know it was heavily edited.
The cruelty is part of the deterrent. But a big part of the deterrence isn’t the pain itself, it’s the fear that you won’t survive, and the loss of being taken out of the world, out of your family, away from your friends for years, and losing a large percentage of your lifespan to captivity. Without that all that’s left is the pain. And that would deter you or me, but a hardened criminal could train themselves to endure it.
As much as I would hate to spend 20 years in prison, I’d hate it less knowing at the end I’d still have the same number of years to look forward to after, and my family and friends would be waiting for me in the same state I left them.
The cruelty is part of the deterrent. But a big part of the deterrence isn’t the pain itself, it’s the fear that you won’t survive, and the loss of being taken out of the world, out of your family, away from your friends for years, and losing a large percentage of your lifespan to captivity. Without that all that’s left is the pain. And that would deter you or me, but a hardened criminal could train themselves to endure it.
As much as I would hate to spend 20 years in prison, I’d hate it less knowing at the end I’d still have the same number of years to look forward to after, and my family and friends would be waiting for me in the same state I left them.
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In my headcanon, Bashir eventually found a way to do just that, since it's never mentioned again.
Not only do I like that idea, but it actually makes sense.
I imagine the punishments are tailored to each individual. Miles received that punishment scenario because he was a good person who would be broken by the knowledge that he killed his only friend. A sociopath would experience a scenario that would be particularly punishing for a sociopath's mind (whatever that may be.)
Great episode, fantastic performance by Meaney.
A decade plus in a cell withe the same guy.
They totally banged.
Again and again.
Bang, bang, bang.
And if that's what Miles was into now...
Kirayoshi is not his kid.
They totally banged.
Again and again.
Bang, bang, bang.
And if that's what Miles was into now...
Kirayoshi is not his kid.
I'm wondering if there's anything Starfleet could do to retaliate against the Argrathi for this.
In a very real sense, the Argrathi committed an act of war by kidnapping O'Brien and subjecting him to this torture. So does the Federation have any recourse against them?
(I don't see how the Prime Directive could possibly apply, since O'Brien was obviously not given a fair trial.)
Yes, they are. One of the Argrathi jailers even points this out.
In a very real sense, the Argrathi committed an act of war by kidnapping O'Brien and subjecting him to this torture. So does the Federation have any recourse against them?
(I don't see how the Prime Directive could possibly apply, since O'Brien was obviously not given a fair trial.)
Yes, they are. One of the Argrathi jailers even points this out.
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I imagine diplomacy between the Federation and Argrathi was chilly for a good long time.
Not as satisfying as dropping a photon torpedo on the "prison" complex, but it'll have to do.
No, the Agrathi didn't commit an act of war. They interpreted O'brien's curiosity as espionage which was a criminal act under their laws and subjected him to their judicial system. In the real world people who commit crimes in countries that they are not native to are subject to the laws and judicial system of that country. They are generally tried and convicted and if they are sent to jail are immediately deported at the end of their sentence. If the defendants home country has an extradition treaty with the complainant country they can request that the defendant be sent home for trial. If not diplomats can go in and negotiate for a reduced sentence.
In an episode of Voyager, Janeway mentions that one of the first rules for starfleet away teams and shore leave is to respect the local laws of the culture they are visiting. O'brien unfortunately failed to do this and paid a horrible price.
You‘re family and friends will be the same.
You having the experience of 20 years in a hell hole? You definitely will not be the same.
It will be a miracle if you haven’t all but forgotten about your family and friends even.
It‘s hard to wrap my head around what this kind of memory implantation even means.
Did Miles properly experience those 20 years like watching a movie in his head from start to finish?
Or does he suddenly have those memories in the state they would be in after 20 years? Like a vague recollection of impressions, replayed and altered a thousand times, with loss and change of details, only the more „recent“ ones being vivid.
Have his real memories changed into 20+ year old faint memories or are they simply suppressed to simulate this effect?
We tend to think of memories as this graspable immutable thing. But in reality you would have difficulty „replaying“ even yesterday or an hour ago like a memory movie. Your brain will already have edited the whole thing to impressions and just key information with some mild context feelings.
Memory flashes from something like PTSD are probably different.
Was Miles basically given artificial PTSD as a punishment? Cause he cannot have experienced all this in real time anyway.
In any case, having stuff inserted would be a strain on the brain. "Actually" (we'll have to imagine some sort of a fast-forward button here) living through 20 years of it would probably shorten O'Brien's lifespan, if not by a comparable amount, then by many years nevertheless: the brain being active may help keep it active and viable to a certain extent, but will eventually result in more wear and tear than vigor. The fast-forward would probably result in even further strain. But the way the brain comprehends time may cater for the fast-forward even ITRW, once we learn to understand it.
Having the fake memories implanted some other way might leave O'Brien just as youthful as always, though, and this probably was the writer intent/assumption here. Yet as tailoring of the punishment is indeed a thing in the episode, perhaps some of the condemned would additionally/primarily receive artificial aging, of the sort that sticks?
Timo Saloniemi
Having the fake memories implanted some other way might leave O'Brien just as youthful as always, though, and this probably was the writer intent/assumption here. Yet as tailoring of the punishment is indeed a thing in the episode, perhaps some of the condemned would additionally/primarily receive artificial aging, of the sort that sticks?
Timo Saloniemi
They should have just sent him back to the Enterprise. Unlike Bashir, Beverly Crusher has little difficulty erasing unwanted memories, even with an alien brain (Sarjenka).
As for the Agrathi, while the Federation would be unlikely to retaliate in the way they deserve (which would involve precision phaser fire), I expect they condemned the false imprisonment and torture of one of their citizens, and imposed appropriate sanctions. Better than nothing.
As for the Agrathi, while the Federation would be unlikely to retaliate in the way they deserve (which would involve precision phaser fire), I expect they condemned the false imprisonment and torture of one of their citizens, and imposed appropriate sanctions. Better than nothing.
That was Pulaski: Crusher is 0 for 1 as of Who Watches the Watchers.
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