Was a Rick Berman a bad choice to run the Star Trek Franchise after Gene Roddenberry died?

[diankra]

I seem to recall the much celebrated 'first televised interracial kiss' was nothing of the sort?

I like fan myths. It's nasty when they get exploded.

Yep, there had been one in the UK series General Hospital (though hostile feedback from viewers meant they were soon split up), and another in America... I Spy maybe?

 

[diankra]

Even in 87 my feeling about TNG was "This is a series made by people who've never seen Hill Street Blues, and still think it's 1979."

 

[diankra]

It was a different time, that's for damn sure. I remember that when I was in high school, being gay was about the worst thing you could be. If there were any actual gay kids at my school (and statistically, there likely were), I couldn't imagine them coming out... it would have been like sticking one's face in a blender.

It was a bit of a culture shock when a young person I knew admitted to me that he was gay, like it was no big deal. But even he admitted that he was careful who he admitted it to.

In the 80s, a teenage friend came out. He was terrified that his friends and family might disown him. Fortunately, only one did, and we treated that person with the contempt he deserved. But it was so terrifying for the gay chap back then.

 

[F. King Daniel]

John Harrison the British Augment lieutenant of Khan would have been 100 times better. But Cumberbatch turned in a good performance even if I didn't think of him as being Khan Singh in most of his scenes.

If Joker can be any of the myriad actors who have played him, there's room for british Khan too.

 

[dupersuper]

I have to kindly disagree there. First of all, Sean Hayes' "Jack" on Will and Grace was a goofy caricature of gay men on a sitcom where life was rarely taken seriously. I would have to say that gay characters were rarely written, and even less portrayed in serious drams well through the end of Enterprise in 2005.

Northern Exposure, Friends and Mad About you all had recurring gay married couples as characters, none of whom I recall being treated as caricatures. We got episodes of at least two of their weddings.

If Joker can be any of the myriad actors who have played him, there's room for british Khan too.

Like there was for a white Ang in Last Airbender?

 

[Oddish]

In the 80s, a teenage friend came out. He was terrified that his friends and family might disown him. Fortunately, only one did, and we treated that person with the contempt he deserved. But it was so terrifying for the gay chap back then.

Honestly, I can't say for sure what would have happened if someone among my set of acquaintances had come out; no one ever did. It may be easier to tell gross out jokes and recite urban legends than it is to ostracize a person you know and like.

 

[fireproof78]

Northern Exposure, Friends and Mad About you all had recurring gay married couples as characters, none of whom I recall being treated as caricatures. We got episodes of at least two of their weddings.

Even a comedy like "Night Court" had both a trans woman, and a lesbian and treated the stuck up character who was unkind to them as in the wrong. Not saying it wasn't a struggle for people going through it in real life but rewatching a lot of 80s and 90s shows this past year and I can't help but look at Trek oddly, at least in this specific instance.

 

[Oddish]

Berman-era Trek might have been targeting a different demographic than other shows of its time.

 

[fireproof78]

Berman-era Trek might have been targeting a different demographic than other shows of its time.

Possibly but even these brief episodes made it feel far more normal than Trek ever did.

 

[Oddish]

If other shows pulled ahead, they pulled ahead, and so be it. Remember that the person running Trek on the Voyager era didn't even have the cerebral capacity to promote an ensign to lieutenant; would you want to entrust the introduction of Trek's first real LGBTQ character(s) to him? We probably would have gotten more Kinky Kira fetishist hijinks, rather than a caring and conventional couple like Stamets and Culber.

 

[lordsigma]

Like Rick Berman or not - if it wasn’t for him we wouldn’t have a lot of the best Star Trek TV of the ‘90s. He brought order to chaos when TNG started - the studio knew Roddenberry could be volatile and as a studio executive at the time he was placed by Paramount to be their rep and keep it on track. In his task he did a great job and TNG was at its best when he got more control and Roddenberry moved more to the background. It should be noted Berman (nor Roddenberry) was not a showrunner in the 2021 sense. While Roddenberry and later Berman were certainly the ultimate person in charge they were really more traditional television executive producers. Berman was more a traditional producer more adept to managing the business aspects of production - as many people forget the writing, while creatively very important, is not the only aspect of making a television show and the person in charge has to manage those aspects as well. In Berman’s Star Trek series other folks like Michael Piller and later Jeri Taylor on TNG and Ira Behr on DS9 and Brannon Braga on Voyager were in charge of the day to day writing. While Berman was ultimately in charge creatively and occasionally would write himself - he delegated the management of the writing to these other producers. The term showrunner traditionally refers to the producer who is the head writer - which Roddenberry and Berman were not. This defers from franchise television today when typically the executive producer and showrunner roles are very much blurred.

 

[lordsigma]

The exception of course was Enterprise where Berman was much more involved creatively with the writing and Berman and Braga ran that series much more like how a lot of current series are run.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Beverly was offered a wealthy serving of lesbian sex in TNG The Host.

Odan was your first gay.

Although what gender was the simbioant?

No.

Leonardo DaVinci was cited with Charges of sodomy in the real world.

Therefore Flint from Requiem for Methuselah was the first gay in Star Trek.

Other than Sulu?

 

[Lord Garth]

Berman-era Trek might have been targeting a different demographic than other shows of its time.

TNG targeted a Family Audience. It was also targeting Baby Boomers and Generation X at the same time since Generation X was such a smaller generation. Which means that TNG could only go as controversial as Boomers were comfortable with and what they were comfortable with what their kids would see. If TNG were targeted towards Generation X and Generation X alone, it would've been very different.

DS9, VOY, and ENT tried to hold on to TNG's Audience, but was losing them. Eventually, after the fourth season, Ira Steven Behr on DS9 stopped caring and figured fans were either with them or they weren't, but on VOY and ENT, getting the TNG Audience back was something they were always obsessed with, so they didn't really shift.

DSC and PIC on the other hand, seem like they're targeted squarely at Generation X and Older Millennials. I'm dead-center their target audience. And we grew up differently than Baby Boomers did, who they're not trying to appeal to anymore. That's why they felt more at liberty to have LGBT Representation, have more profanity, be more feminist-leaning, etc. That's why they finally decided they could change the look of the TOS Era. The people who were mainly fans of TOS have aged out of the demographic they're trying to reach. Generally speaking. I think DSC was initially in the TOS Era because CBS had to be Prime Timeline, but they also wanted to ride off the momentum of the Kelvin Films. How the TNG Era looked during the TNG Era was left unchanged by PIC, because they don't want to piss off their target audience who grew up with it and they still see as marketable.

 

[Ghel]

Berman was flawed but fine.
People complaining about Berman forget that TNG season 1 and 2 (arguably the most inconsistent) were not showrun by Berman. Had the show continued on that course, It could have (and probably would have) been cancelled in spite of being syndicated (and therefore no DS9, Voyager, or Enterprise). Berman came in and help create a consistent and well produced show.
Did they take the risks that they *could* have with a different showrunner?!? Probably not. However, much like the "daring" interracial kiss that really wasn't from TOS (Kirk and Ohura only kiss because they are being controlled by aliens) episodes such as the The Outcast were "daring" in their own way, even they didn't fully commit such as by having Riker in love with a male actor in the role of Soren.
Perhaps as the 80s slowly moved towards the 2000s, the Trek shows began to feel more conservative by nature since Berman's sensibilities didn't change over time, and the cat-suits for the female cast were frequently major missteps, but I have a hard time blaming Berman for those flaws without also crediting Berman for running a show that spanned 4 series and 4 films and also proved that Star Trek could be viable as an ongoing franchise.

 

[Lord Garth]

Rick Berman's Time at the Top
1989-1994 --> He's okay. --> Beginning
1994-2001 --> Gray area. --> Middle
2001-2005 --> He should've been gone. --> End

He was good for TNG and getting DS9 started up. After that, the less he had a hand in it, the better it seemed to be. By the turn of the millennium, it should've been clear he wasn't the right person to handle the movies. By the turn of the millennium, it should've been clear that the next television series should've been headed by someone else.

Or, to quote The Dark Knight: "A hero either dies a hero or lives long enough to become the villain."

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While we're at it...

Gene Roddenberry's Time at the Top
1964-1968 --> He's okay. --> Beginning
1968-1979 --> Gray area. --> Middle
1986-1989 --> He should've been gone. --> End

He's fine, creatively, during the first two seasons of TOS. Then he's either checked out (third season) or has weird ideas (The God Thing, JFK Story) in the lead-up to TMP, but he also kept the flame of Star Trek going during the Lean Years. Once TNG starts up, he's toxic and an enabler for Leonard Miazlish who was even more toxic.

I don't count Post-TMP/Pre-TNG because he clearly wasn't at the top at that point since the movies were the only game in town and power over them had been taken away from him.

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EDITED TO ADD: Alex Kurtzman, take notes. Judging by your predecessors: Stick around. But don't stick around too long.

 

[dupersuper]

That's why they felt more at liberty to have LGBT Representation, have more profanity, be more feminist-leaning, etc.

Which is awesome.

That's why they finally decided they could change the look of the TOS Era.

Which is not.

 

[suarezguy]

The idea that ST needed new blood, new fresh style did lead to Berman, while not firing himself, hiring Logan and Baird for Nemesis, new blood is not necessarily good or better.

I do wonder, what if Abrahms had been brought in to work on or create series 5 or if Logan had been hired to write a film with an original cast.

Edit:

In Berman’s Star Trek series other folks like Michael Piller and later Jeri Taylor on TNG and Ira Behr on DS9 and Brannon Braga on Voyager were in charge of the day to day writing. While Berman was ultimately in charge creatively and occasionally would write himself - he delegated the management of the writing to these other producers.

It's kind of funny, but really unfair, that a lot of Berman haters seem to think he should get no credit whatsoever for bringing on and keeping Behr in Deep Space Nine.

 

[The Wormhole]

It's kind of funny, but really unfair, that a lot of Berman haters seem to think he should get no credit whatsoever for bringing on and keeping Behr in Deep Space Nine.

Hiring Behr was Michael Piller's decision, and while an argument can be made that it was Berman who promoted him to showrunner after Piller left, let's be honest, Berman did that mostly because it was convenient for him to do so.

 

[MAGolding]

It was a different time, that's for damn sure. I remember that when I was in high school, being gay was about the worst thing you could be. If there were any actual gay kids at my school (and statistically, there likely were), I couldn't imagine them coming out... it would have been like sticking one's face in a blender.

It was a bit of a culture shock when a young person I knew admitted to me that he was gay, like it was no big deal. But even he admitted that he was careful who he admitted it to.

When were you in high school, if that is not too personal? And when did that person say that they were gay?

I have an idea for a story, and it would be good to know how dangerous various eras would be for unusal kids.