Was a Rick Berman a bad choice to run the Star Trek Franchise after Gene Roddenberry died?

[Grizzlor]

I read somewhere that anti-gay pushback gathered steam in the first half of the '00's (remember, the sodomy laws in 13 states didn't get repealed until 2003, and it was at the will of the USSC, not of the voters). Berman and his colleagues might have been nervous due to that. It is strange that TNG had "The Outcast", an unabashedly pro-LGBTQ episode, and DS9 had Dax's girl-on-girl kissing, and then Voyager and Enterprise had... nothing.

Honestly the mirror Kira, who was clearly bisexual, was hardly a triumph in LGBT representation, and probably fit into the same thinking that produced Jeri Ryan's wardrobe, if you get my drift. Earlier you had "Rejoined" which was a lovely episode where Terry Farrell and Susanna Thompson are intimate. It was very natural but short lived and forgettable amidst the story telling that happens in a given season.

Sigh This nonsense about "the television industry was still homophobic in the 1990s and that's why 90s Trek couldn't do gay characters" is exactly that - nonsense. Plenty of 90s shows had gay characters in them, among them Will and Grace, which featured a gay titular lead character, and that premiered in 1998, when DS9 was in its final season and Voyager in its fifth. There was definitely no reason there couldn't be any gay characters from that point on to when the Berman era ended in 2005. Hell, Enterprise's finale aired just one week before Doctor Who introduced its first LGBTQ+ main character.

I have to kindly disagree there. First of all, Sean Hayes' "Jack" on Will and Grace was a goofy caricature of gay men on a sitcom where life was rarely taken seriously. I would have to say that gay characters were rarely written, and even less portrayed in serious drams well through the end of Enterprise in 2005. Buffy the Vampire Slayer of course had Willow "come out" after moving to UPN, but that was after DS9/VOY had ended. Buffy also had a different demographic than Star Trek. The L Word premiered in 2004 and that was on premium cable. That show as one of the first I can recall that treated female gay relationships honestly.

Lastly, I'm not sure I would point to homophobia as the reason for the hesitancy, but you still had the "old boys club" in full effect in Hollywood. To be a writer/show runner, you mainly were a white guy who goofed off at an Ivy League school, and nepotism got you hired. Mutual backscratching was the name of the game. In this type of environment, how on earth could we expect LGBTQ stories and characters to treated with dignity? And as I said, you were dealing with a sheer lack of life experience there. It wasn't entirely that they didn't want to cover the subject matter, in many cases, they just weren't interested in it. Writers and producers are not cut from the same cloth as actors and directors, as they often do not study among artists.

I didn't say the TELEVISION INDUSTRY was homophobic. I said that CERTAIN VIEWERS were.

It was all about the advertisers. This was pre-Internet for the most part, when movements relied on newspaper coverage and mostly direct mail and phone calls to corporations and broadcasters.

 

[Oddish]

It was a different time, that's for damn sure. I remember that when I was in high school, being gay was about the worst thing you could be. If there were any actual gay kids at my school (and statistically, there likely were), I couldn't imagine them coming out... it would have been like sticking one's face in a blender.

It was a bit of a culture shock when a young person I knew admitted to me that he was gay, like it was no big deal. But even he admitted that he was careful who he admitted it to.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Honestly the mirror Kira, who was clearly bisexual, was hardly a triumph in LGBT representation, and probably fit into the same thinking that produced Jeri Ryan's wardrobe, if you get my drift. Earlier you had "Rejoined" which was a lovely episode where Terry Farrell and Susanna Thompson are intimate. It was very natural but short lived and forgettable amidst the story telling that happens in a given season.



I have to kindly disagree there. First of all, Sean Hayes' "Jack" on Will and Grace was a goofy caricature of gay men on a sitcom where life was rarely taken seriously. I would have to say that gay characters were rarely written, and even less portrayed in serious drams well through the end of Enterprise in 2005. Buffy the Vampire Slayer of course had Willow "come out" after moving to UPN, but that was after DS9/VOY had ended. Buffy also had a different demographic than Star Trek. The L Word premiered in 2004 and that was on premium cable. That show as one of the first I can recall that treated female gay relationships honestly.

Lastly, I'm not sure I would point to homophobia as the reason for the hesitancy, but you still had the "old boys club" in full effect in Hollywood. To be a writer/show runner, you mainly were a white guy who goofed off at an Ivy League school, and nepotism got you hired. Mutual backscratching was the name of the game. In this type of environment, how on earth could we expect LGBTQ stories and characters to treated with dignity? And as I said, you were dealing with a sheer lack of life experience there. It wasn't entirely that they didn't want to cover the subject matter, in many cases, they just weren't interested in it. Writers and producers are not cut from the same cloth as actors and directors, as they often do not study among artists.



It was all about the advertisers. This was pre-Internet for the most part, when movements relied on newspaper coverage and mostly direct mail and phone calls to corporations and broadcasters.

Gene couldn't sell Star Trek to a Network.

First run syndication.

Hundreds of little mom and pop networks airing TNG for free, in exchange for advertising time.

No monolith.

They had to keep a mob happy.

 

[The Wormhole]

Buffy the Vampire Slayer of course had Willow "come out" after moving to UPN, but that was after DS9/VOY had ended.

You might want to recheck your facts there. Willow came out during Buffy's fourth season, which was while the show was still airing on The WB. Yes, DS9 had already ended, but Voyager was in its sixth season. Buffy didn't move to UPN until its own sixth season, which yes, was also after Voyager ended, not that that's relevant to the discussion at all.

 

[1001001]

It was a bit of a culture shock when a young person I knew admitted to me that he was gay, like it was no big deal.

"Admitted"? Was he confessing to a crime?

Those old biases can die hard, That's true for us. It's true for the people who make Star Trek.

We all just try to do a little better each time around.

 

[Tim Thomason]

You might want to recheck your facts there. Willow came out during Buffy's fourth season, which was while the show was still airing on The WB. Yes, DS9 had already ended, but Voyager was in its sixth season. Buffy didn't move to UPN until its own sixth season, which yes, was also after Voyager ended, not that that's relevant to the discussion at all.

Yeah, Willow herself came out (and realized herself, it's not like it was a big secret for long) on May 2, 2000 during the airing of New Moon Rising and a day before Voyager's Fury aired on UPN.

Interestingly, though, Willow's Vampire doppelganger from another timeline was stated to be "kind of gay" (and was flirting with her counterpart) in Dopplegangland, which aired on February 23, 1999 (during DS9's final season, a day before Badda-Bing, Badda-Bang). This plot development, and a subtle reference by the character Angel that this might indicate something about Willow's own sexuality, is often treated as a hint towards Whedon's future plans of exploring the issue further in the next season and the first clue to Willow's lesbianism. And while I agree that this falls into the Evul Gayz trope from DS9 with Intendant Kira and Ezri Tigan, I wonder if we can make any assumptions on regular Kira or Ezri and their potential bisexuality.

 

[Oddish]

Admitted"? Was he confessing to a crime?

Of course not. But he was telling me something that he wasn't quite prepared to have known by everyone.

 

[EnriqueH]

One thing that annoyed me in my teens whenever I read about an upcoming Berman Trek film, he would invariably be quoted as saying “We have the best villain since Khan.”

 

[Tim Thomason]

One thing that annoyed me in my teens whenever I read about an upcoming Berman Trek film, he would invariably be quoted as saying “We have the best villain since Khan.”

Khan was so great, they copy and pasted him about six or seven times.

 

[EnriqueH]

Khan was so great, they copy and pasted him about six or seven times.

 

[cooleddie74]

One thing that annoyed me in my teens whenever I read about an upcoming Berman Trek film, he would invariably be quoted as saying “We have the best villain since Khan.”

Even the Borg Queen wasn't as good as Khan even in TOS.

 

[EnriqueH]

While no one will ever top Khan, TWOK version, I still really enjoyed Kruge, Chang, Sybok and Soran. The villains that followed were all kinda meh to me with the exception of Benedict Cumberbatch, who I did enjoy.

 

[Henoch]

While no one will ever top Khan, TWOK version, I still really enjoyed Kruge, Chang, Sybok and Soran. The villains that followed were all kinda meh to me with the exception of Benedict Cumberbatch, who I did enjoy.

Yes, Cumberbatch made a good John Harrison...

 

[fireproof78]

One thing that annoyed me in my teens whenever I read about an upcoming Berman Trek film, he would invariably be quoted as saying “We have the best villain since Khan.”

That will always annoy me. It's a constant use of that measuring tape that pretty much hangs Star Trek up before it even begins trying something new. *cue Mary Poppins magic tape measure*

Yes, Cumberbatch made a good John Harrison...

He did. And a good Khan.

 

[Qonundrum]

He did. And a good Khan.

Not when he reveals his real name. I constrained to not laugh in the theater because people seem to dislike surprise loud noises, whether it's gossip, a phone ringing, a baby crying, two people in the back row, or any other form of noise.

STID did not need Khan at all. Nor juggling dialogue from the old movies, which NEM was criticized for as well and just as rightly so...

 

[Vger23]

While no one will ever top Khan, TWOK version, I still really enjoyed Kruge, Chang, Sybok and Soran. The villains that followed were all kinda meh to me with the exception of Benedict Cumberbatch, who I did enjoy.

I liked Kruge, Sybok and Soran. Chang to me was pretty bland and uninteresting, despite my affection for Plummer's performance.

Actually, all of the actors who have played Trek movie villains are pretty awesome. It's just the characters that aren't always great.

One thing that annoyed me in my teens whenever I read about an upcoming Berman Trek film, he would invariably be quoted as saying “We have the best villain since Khan.”

You are soooo very right. This was pretty much the marketing tagline for every TNG movie.

 

[fireproof78]

STID did not need Khan at all.

"Need?" No, not a need at all. Did it work well enough for my purposes? Yes.

Mileage will vary, and clearly does.

Would my preferences have been straight up John Harrison? Absolutely. But, I 100% enjoy Kirk's reactor scene and will take that as presented.

 

[cooleddie74]

John Harrison the British Augment lieutenant of Khan would have been 100 times better. But Cumberbatch turned in a good performance even if I didn't think of him as being Khan Singh in most of his scenes.

 

[diankra]

Then why didn't Berman just come out (no pun intended) and say that he'd have totally been up for including LGBT characters, but the higher-ups at Paramount wouldn't let him? Instead, he's always justified it with this weird circular logic argument, saying that he didn't want to just mention in passing that any characters - no matter how small their role was - were gay because he felt there should be an actual episode which addressed the topic, but then refusing to allow such an episode to actually be written because he didn't feel the writers could tackle the subject without beating the viewers over the head with the message.

Collective reponsibility. Applies in politics, but also in tv and magazines. When I was an editor I had to defend policies I'd vigourishly attacked in meetings with the boss, before being over-ruled. You either do that or resign.

 

[diankra]

That kind of pseudo-lesbian girl-on-girl kissing, played for laughs and giggles and the titillation of men, rarely pisses even the most anti-gay guys off. Sometimes officially, yes.

I think what I lay on him is that he either wasn't interested in being inclusive with the queer community, or he was afraid to do so. Mulgrew has mentioned she asked for a gay character to be included on Voyager several times.

As others have pointed out, Trek simply was never as progressive as it claimed to be. And certainly not in the Berman era. Until Discovery, which is the first show to get serious about ethnic as well as glbqt+ community.

As for DS9, I watched an interview with Behr, probably on The 7th Rule, last year. He mentioned that Andrew Robinson suggested it to him, but that he never even considered taking up that fight with the studios. In hindsight, he regretted it. I appreciated his self-reflection and honesty.

FWIW, I'm glad there is nothing onscreen to suggest Garak is gay. The trope that anyone gay has had a troubled upbringing is not something to encourage.