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Worst Character Assassination Episodes
- Thread starter Oddish
- Start date
You're the one who brought that example as being more "accessible"... What was your point then?
Well, hope springs eternal.
I could TOTALLY see that happening.
EMH: "I'm sorry, captain, but I have destroyed the radioisotope and deleted all knowledge of how to produce it from my database. I am a physician, and a physician must do no harm. I will not take Mr. Tuvix's life against his will, nor will I participate in doing so."
Well, I can see Janeway crazy with rage deleting the EMH's ethical subroutine, like the Equinox guy and we know that takes about two seconds and then ordering the unethical EMH to redo the research from scratch while keeping Tuvix in the brig. I doubt ball-less Chak, Paris, and least of all Kim would have anything to say about that.
Exactly.
The question of whether to replace the entire brain was framed as a ship of Theseus problem.
Also, the technique was experimental. Bashir said up front that they lacked knowledge that might be necessary to successfully perform the procedure. And Bareil reported that his sense of touch did not seem real after the partial transfer, which indicated that it was not working perfectly.
There's no implication that Data was not a fully conscious being.
Unlike in Picard where they can turn you into a robot so perfectly you don’t seem aware of it until someone brings it up over tea…
I think I made my point well enough. We're discussing life-changes that can impact one's quality of life, at least according to their own perceptions. Whether they feel it's adverse enough that death is a preferable option isn't the point.
Well, I disagree, the two are intimately linked plus it's not a ship of Theseus problem. The totality of the knowledge of Bareil was transferred into the new parts otherwise he would be useless in the peace treaty negotiations. So if he has all the knowledge of the (former) bareil he would be (basically) like Data's mother whom Data chose to treat like the real thing.
The problem I have with this episode is that Bashir is a complete ass in it. He's the one who told Bareil about the drug that destroyed his organs but then he goes to see Winn and insults her because she refused to lie!! While if he had refrained to talk about this very experimental drug in the first place he wouldn't have had to ask her anything. What an idiot.
In that episode, Winn is the only one who really didn't do anything wrong. She didn't care for Bareil like a friend but we already knew that about her. Kira is the one that authorized the brain implant yet in the end the two Bashir and Kira acts as if she had anything to do with it!!!
And we're supposed to see Her as the Villain!!! please!!
From TNG "The Schizoid Man" [http://www.chakoteya.net/NextGen/131.htm]:
Captain's log, supplemental. We've said goodbye to Kareen Brianon, with the hopeful feeling that her future will be a bright one. The intellect of Ira Graves has been deposited into our computer. There is knowledge but no consciousness. The human equation has been lost.
A recurring theme in these episodes is that consciousness is more than simply knowledge.
Yeah, apparently they've ironed (at least most of) the bugs out.
I don't think I articulated myself as well as I had hoped.
It is a 100% shit joke based on misogynistic stereotypes and, as you say, does not play out in the reality of the film.
I was simply giving the benefit of the doubt due to Sirtis making a joke about it herself back in the day
You can't be serious.
The whole point of the episode was that Ira Graves was himself INSIDE DATA's body!!! So a positronic brain can retain (according to that very episode ) the personality of an individual. Plus the human equation wasn't lost for Data's mother or
Picard in Picard when he was turned into an android!!!
About the character assassination in Life Support:
Bashir: There is that highly experimental insufficiently tested drug that will likely damage your internal organs but it will allow you to help for the peace talks.
Bareil: Well, use it.
Bashir: But I am telling you don't do it because it will damage your internal organs.
Bareil: If you don't want me to use it them why did you tell me about it?
Bashir: Because I am an idiot.
.....
Bashir: Kai Winn, you have to lie to Bareil so that I can stop the treatment I told him about before telling him not to use it.
Winn: I won't lie.
Bashir: You're a coward a villain and an asshole and I hate you!!
Winn: You realize that you work on a Bajoran station and you've just insulted a planetary elected official, most likely the most important Bajoran at that moment and I could ask your government to replace you or even have you arrested?
Bashir: Well, you're out of luck. I am a regular of the show and you're just a guest actor, plus the writer is an idiot with no understanding of politics whatsoever. Plus you are the villain even though in this episode you didn't do anything wrong. People will still be on my side no matter how much I screwed up!!!
Winn: Damn it! thwarted again!!
Bashir: There is that highly experimental insufficiently tested drug that will likely damage your internal organs but it will allow you to help for the peace talks.
Bareil: Well, use it.
Bashir: But I am telling you don't do it because it will damage your internal organs.
Bareil: If you don't want me to use it them why did you tell me about it?
Bashir: Because I am an idiot.
.....
Bashir: Kai Winn, you have to lie to Bareil so that I can stop the treatment I told him about before telling him not to use it.
Winn: I won't lie.
Bashir: You're a coward a villain and an asshole and I hate you!!
Winn: You realize that you work on a Bajoran station and you've just insulted a planetary elected official, most likely the most important Bajoran at that moment and I could ask your government to replace you or even have you arrested?
Bashir: Well, you're out of luck. I am a regular of the show and you're just a guest actor, plus the writer is an idiot with no understanding of politics whatsoever. Plus you are the villain even though in this episode you didn't do anything wrong. People will still be on my side no matter how much I screwed up!!!
Winn: Damn it! thwarted again!!
A positronic brain could absolutely support the transfer. But the transfer had to be more than just a transfer of knowledge in order for the transfer of consciousness to occur, and Bashir lacked the medical knowledge to transfer more than just the knowledge. How to transfer consciousness was not public knowledge.
That's the point.
So, yes, I absolutely am completely serious.
Regarding Ira Graves...
Using a positronic brain for a personality transfer proved to be unstable, as we saw in the episode. Whether that was because of the process itself, using a positronic brain that already had a personality (Data), or Ira being somewhat off already is a question, but a true positronic transfer was not possible at that time.
Using a positronic brain for a personality transfer proved to be unstable, as we saw in the episode. Whether that was because of the process itself, using a positronic brain that already had a personality (Data), or Ira being somewhat off already is a question, but a true positronic transfer was not possible at that time.
Agreed about the earlier points, but not the last one. As we later learned, Soong had already successfully, or at least apparently successfully, performed the positronic transfer of Juliana in "Inheritance." Soong did not share his technique, and by his own admission it was still experimental when he performed the transfer. From http://www.chakoteya.net/NextGen/262.htm:
SOONG: She was injured when the Crystalline Entity attacked. We made it as far as Terlina Three but, she slipped into a coma. When I realised nothing could be done for her, I built an android. I tried to perfect my synaptic scanning technique so that I could transfer Juliana's memories into a positronic matrix. I didn't know if it would work, but I had to try. I couldn't stand the thought of losing the only woman I ever loved. A few days after Juliana died, I activated the android. She looked up at me and smiled. She recognised me. It had worked! Here was a life not two minutes old, and as far as she knew I was her husband. She'd just recovered from a terrible injury. It was incredible.
But Calculon, no matter how much you post, your rank remains "moderator". I call shenanigans!
That’s my job, not my rank.
We have Super Moderators as well. Not exactly sure what they do…
@Orac Zen ?
That's pure unfounded speculation (with all due respect).
Bashir says that the use of the positronic brain removes "the spark of life". He never said anything about lacking the knowledge to do the procedure. Plus Bashir managed to transfer ALL the memory of the dead part to the positronic brain and that seems competent enough. It looks like we're wandering into the rough terrain of voodoo science again.
