WNMHGB Question

[JonnyQuest037]

But I'm inclined to compare the classic cast Star Trek movies to the Star Wars movies, from a production standpoint. My impression (as a non-fan) is that the SW films were made with care for keeping the world consistent and character continuity intact.

Except for huge plot twists like Darth Vader being Luke Skywalker's father, sure.

No, the Star Wars films were like anything, made up as they went along & evolving over time. George Lucas just likes to pretend that he had a grand plan from the start.

As far as The Final Frontier, two episodes were directly "quoted." So that had to show someone was paying attention. McCoy's reused a line from "The Corbomite Maneuver" and Kirk did the "Tall Ship" thing from "The Ultimate Computer." I'll go so far as to give David Loughery credit for those since he was the primary screenwriter. So if he did enough research to pluck out those lines, why not allow him one more with a Sam reference?

Because it wouldn't have added anything to the story they were telling. They could have listed every other relative of Kirk, Spock, and McCoy's during the "Other men have families" exchange, but all it would've done is dilute the point that at that point in their lives, Kirk, Spock, and McCoy were each other's family.

 

[Ssosmcin]

Because it wouldn't have added anything to the story they were telling. They could have listed every other relative of Kirk, Spock, and McCoy's during the "Other men have families" exchange, but all it would've done is dilute the point that at that point in their lives, Kirk, Spock, and McCoy were each other's family.

Actually, I feel the opposite. I think it reinforces the notion that McCoy and Spock are every bit as important, if not more, than his lost blood brother.

Not every reference or line adds to the story, some of it is just flavoring. Why does Spock saying "marshmelons" instead of the actual correct word? It could just be a joke, but the word is said at least four times. It's never explained so it's up to the audience to decide why he didn't say "marshmallow." It was enough of an issue for the novelization to try to explain it.

I really don't feel it's beyond the realm of possibility to assume Loughery said "Kirk had a brother right? What was his name? Whatever, this would be a nice moment. Like those other two I threw in."

Harve Bennett watched the series and he was aware of the fans, so why not?

 

[Poltargyst]

Except for huge plot twists like Darth Vader being Luke Skywalker's father, sure.

No, the Star Wars films were like anything, made up as they went along & evolving over time. George Lucas just likes to pretend that he had a grand plan from the start.

Because it wouldn't have added anything to the story they were telling. They could have listed every other relative of Kirk, Spock, and McCoy's during the "Other men have families" exchange, but all it would've done is dilute the point that at that point in their lives, Kirk, Spock, and McCoy were each other's family.

I don't think Lucas would have had Luke and Leia kissing if he intended for them to be siblings from the start.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

I don't think Lucas would have had Luke and Leia kissing if he intended for them to be siblings from the start.

I certainly hope not! There are definitely way too many moments in Star Wars and Empire that play too creepy now for it to believable that that plot twist was intended from the very beginning.

 

[FormerLurker]

No, the Star Wars films were like anything, made up as they went along & evolving over time. George Lucas just likes to pretend that he had a grand plan from the start.

Oh, Lucas had a grand plan from the start. It just happens to be the first page of the novelization of the first film (episode 4). There's what, six, seven sentences on that page? From that he came up with three 2+ hour movies. What comes after the first film? That got made up on the fly.

And don't tell me the novelization didn't come out until much later. I read it the first time in late 1977.

 

[Scott Kellogg]

Oh, Lucas had a grand plan from the start. It just happens to be the first page of the novelization of the first film (episode 4). There's what, six, seven sentences on that page? From that he came up with three 2+ hour movies. What comes after the first film? That got made up on the fly.

And don't tell me the novelization didn't come out until much later. I read it the first time in late 1977.

The book also describes Luke as 18 years old, and Leia as 16. So much for "Twins."

My wife made an excellent point about the films. Lucas's wife, Marcia won an oscar for editing on the original "Star Wars"
She contributed greatly to the creation of the storyline. But, when they got divorced, he would have had to pay her for everything that she contributed. So, he rewrote it all.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

Oh, Lucas had a grand plan from the start. It just happens to be the first page of the novelization of the first film (episode 4). There's what, six, seven sentences on that page? From that he came up with three 2+ hour movies. What comes after the first film? That got made up on the fly.

...You know that Lucas didn't actually write the SW novelization, right?

And calling the first movie "Episode IV" is itself a retcon. That subtitle wasn't added until a rerelease and Lucas knew that there would be sequels.

My wife made an excellent point about the films. Lucas's wife, Marcia won an oscar for editing on the original "Star Wars"
She contributed greatly to the creation of the storyline. But, when they got divorced, he would have had to pay her for everything that she contributed. So, he rewrote it all.

Excellent point! That explains just about everything you need to know about how the SW films changed and why certain story points don't hang together as well as they should.

Patton Oswalt has a great bit about how a lot of great films were directed by men but then edited by women, who shaped them into the classics they are.

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[J.T.B.]

My wife made an excellent point about the films. Lucas's wife, Marcia won an oscar for editing on the original "Star Wars"
She contributed greatly to the creation of the storyline. But, when they got divorced, he would have had to pay her for everything that she contributed. So, he rewrote it all.

No...

Film editors are paid to do the job of editing the film (in cooperation with the director) and that's it; unless there's some kind of unusual contractual arrangement they are not paid for anything else, including changes to the story. Whatever he had to pay her as part of the divorce settlement would be a separate matter, of course. There were also two other editors, Paul Hirsch and Richard Chew.

And the Lucases divorced in 1983, after Return of the Jedi had been released.

 

[fireproof78]

...You know that Lucas didn't actually write the SW novelization, right?

And calling the first movie "Episode IV" is itself a retcon. That subtitle wasn't added until a rerelease and Lucas knew that there would be sequels.

Yup. Lucas did a really good job at selling this idea but a lot of Star Wars saved in editing, as well as by Al Lad Jr.'s belief that this film could work. But, the idea that Lucas had this all figured out simply doesn't hold up with the history.

 

[Kor]

Similar to GR that's a verisimilitude sold primarily after the fact. The fact that it works so well is a testament to George's retconning, not full planning.

To me, ESB doesn't feel like it's quite the same 'universe' as the first Star Wars, for various reasons.
But I don't want to derail this thread any further.

Kor

 

[Scott Kellogg]

No...

Film editors are paid to do the job of editing the film (in cooperation with the director) and that's it; unless there's some kind of unusual contractual arrangement they are not paid for anything else, including changes to the story. Whatever he had to pay her as part of the divorce settlement would be a separate matter, of course. There were also two other editors, Paul Hirsch and Richard Chew.

And the Lucases divorced in 1983, after Return of the Jedi had been released.

Marcia Lucas did far more than simply edit the films, and has been credited by people involved for doing so.

 

[J.T.B.]

Marcia Lucas did far more than simply edit the films, and has been credited by people involved for doing so.

I have a pretty good idea of what she did, and what Hirsch and Chew did. What specifically are you claiming that George would owe Marcia for that he could evade by re-writing subsequent pictures?

 

[Scott Kellogg]

Rights to characters, story details, world building...things that husband wife creative teams normally collaborate on while bouncing ideas off each other... what have you.

 

[J.T.B.]

Rights to characters, story details, world building...things that husband wife creative teams normally collaborate on while bouncing ideas off each other... what have you.

Are you saying that Marcia contributed ideas for ESB and ROTJ, and that George wrote the movies to avoid those contributions so he wouldn't owe her more money in their future divorce? I'd like to see evidence for that.

 

[Scott Kellogg]

Are you saying that Marcia contributed ideas for ESB and ROTJ, and that George wrote the movies to avoid those contributions so he wouldn't owe her more money in their future divorce? I'd like to see evidence for that.

Okay, I was talking about the Prequels.
I don't know how you thought I was talking about the others, because they were made before the divorce.

 

[fireproof78]

Okay, I was talking about the Prequels.
I don't know how you thought I was talking about the others, because they were made before the divorce.

Hmmm

My wife made an excellent point about the films. Lucas's wife, Marcia won an oscar for editing on the original "Star Wars"
She contributed greatly to the creation of the storyline. But, when they got divorced, he would have had to pay her for everything that she contributed. So, he rewrote it all.

There's nothing in here that discusses the prequels. I thought you were initially talking about the original film and the next two. I don't have the timeline of Lucas' divorce memorized so I can see the confusion.

 

[Swedish Borg]

Why do gods have weird eyes?

 

[J.T.B.]

I don't know how you thought I was talking about the others, because they were made before the divorce.

Because the preceding discussion had been about Vader being Luke's father and Leia being Luke's sister.

 

[Scott Kellogg]

The discussion was no longer about Where No Man Has Gone Before
Topic drift was happening.
Just how far it had drifted was not clear to me.

 

[The Old Mixer]

Gary was seduced by the Dark Side of the Force...