So what Kirk's trying to say is that he thought Spock had plot armor.
WNMHGB Question
- Thread starter Vger23
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He did say the salute hurts worse than the (dress) uniform.
I remember that moment in the theater. For a second I was jazzed by what would surely be a reference to "Operation:Annihilate." And then came the letdown: Shatner and the movie had no memory of Kirk's established history.
I am glad you said that because I thought I was the only one.
Just as I said, It's like McCoy is allergic to everything Vulcan. He even called Spock "Inhuman" a few times for expressing an opinion.
IIRC, both the novelization and the comics adaptation of STV referenced Sam in that scene. The novelization said something like, "'I lost a brother once,' Kirk said, knowing they would think he was referencing Sam," while the comics adaptation had Kirk looking out a window during that scene, with his reflection drawn as Sam.
I think that's fine, as both the novelizations and the comics adaptations are read my more hardcore fans of the franchise, so that kind of fan service is okay. In a movie, 22 years after that episode originally aired? It wasn't really needed.
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Kirk: I lost a brother once...
Bones: Yes, I know Jim, it still hurts doesn't it?
Kirk:... I mean... (whispering toward McCoy) not that one...
Bones: What do you mean?
Kirk: I mean not brother brother, just a brother in a manner of speaking...
Bones: Oh, I see, so who did you lose then? When did he die?.
Kirk: No, NO, NO, I didn't lose him in that way...I mean...
Bones: What?
Kirk: Forget it!
Bones: Yes, I know Jim, it still hurts doesn't it?
Kirk:... I mean... (whispering toward McCoy) not that one...
Bones: What do you mean?
Kirk: I mean not brother brother, just a brother in a manner of speaking...
Bones: Oh, I see, so who did you lose then? When did he die?.
Kirk: No, NO, NO, I didn't lose him in that way...I mean...
Bones: What?
Kirk: Forget it!
Well, you could see it as a tease, that Spock and McCoy thought Jim was talking about Sam, but he turned the tables and made it about Spock. That's how I took it, rightly or not. There is really nothing to suggest he wasn't talking about his brother. In fact, I think it gives the exchange greater meaning.
And, to be fair, even the Star Trek series staff forgot how many kids Sam had over the course of a few months. Having Shatner remember something from so many years earlier...? Meh.
That's one way to look at it. But I'm inclined to compare the classic cast Star Trek movies to the Star Wars movies, from a production standpoint. My impression (as a non-fan) is that the SW films were made with care for keeping the world consistent and character continuity intact.
Meanwhile, the Star Trek films aren't even consistent with each other, let alone the TV series. They were made with neither a fan's knowledge nor a professional's willingness to do the research and get things right. I dislike Star Wars and want to love Star Trek, but too often the ST films give off an air of indifference, like it was just a job, a lark, and the details didn't matter.
I like to be fair, that's just me, but the classic films made after TMP were written and produced by people who never worked on the series. To give Harve Bennett credit, he at least watched every episode before making TWOK. The actors only remember the episodes they had the most interesting work in, so you can't expect them to correct continuity.
As far as The Final Frontier, two episodes were directly "quoted." So that had to show someone was paying attention. McCoy's reused a line from "The Corbomite Maneuver" and Kirk did the "Tall Ship" thing from "The Ultimate Computer." I'll go so far as to give David Loughery credit for those since he was the primary screenwriter. So if he did enough research to pluck out those lines, why not allow him one more with a Sam reference? Especially since he didn't name him and was able to add something for the fans without alienating the 7 people in the audience who never watched Star Trek and accidentally wandered into the theater.
It really does make sense. Kirk had said that guys like them don't have families. With that in mind, when he says he lost a brother once, there's no reason for Spock and McCoy to immediately assume Kirk means Spock. But when he does flip it, WHAM! That means a lot more and Kirk himself reinforces it with "I was wrong." Obviously YMMV, but I really feel it adds so much to the dialog and the scene.
As far as The Final Frontier, two episodes were directly "quoted." So that had to show someone was paying attention. McCoy's reused a line from "The Corbomite Maneuver" and Kirk did the "Tall Ship" thing from "The Ultimate Computer." I'll go so far as to give David Loughery credit for those since he was the primary screenwriter. So if he did enough research to pluck out those lines, why not allow him one more with a Sam reference? Especially since he didn't name him and was able to add something for the fans without alienating the 7 people in the audience who never watched Star Trek and accidentally wandered into the theater.
It really does make sense. Kirk had said that guys like them don't have families. With that in mind, when he says he lost a brother once, there's no reason for Spock and McCoy to immediately assume Kirk means Spock. But when he does flip it, WHAM! That means a lot more and Kirk himself reinforces it with "I was wrong." Obviously YMMV, but I really feel it adds so much to the dialog and the scene.
Similar to GR that's a verisimilitude sold primarily after the fact. The fact that it works so well is a testament to George's retconning, not full planning.
Spock: "Life is not a dream."
May I direct you to the Star Trek Continues Iris...?
Likely just the straw that broke the camel's back. Yet another lost love: one could see how it would add up.
Or, to read it the apparent and probably intended way, Edith and Rayna were just women. What Kirk lamented in "Requiem" was his mirror image, Flint the Man. That is, he didn't spare a single word for the fembot in his lament - it was all about Flint and Kirk, Kirk and Flint. Who were just the two sides of the mirror anyway.
Basically, Kirk isn't the type to lament much. But when he does, it's all about self-pity, one way or another.
Timo Saloniemi
Basically, Kirk isn't the type to lament much. But when he does, it's all about self-pity, one way or another.
Timo Saloniemi
We get mixed signals about Kirk. In "Elaan of Troyius" he's saved from the "love charm" by his devotion to Enterprise.
Not necessarily. Kirk's parents may have just not been selected to die. In fact, we don't know who he lost on Tarsus IV. It was never mentioned. Maybe nobody. Maybe friends.
I'm willing to accept that Sam's two other boys were college age or on their own. But none of them are mentioned outside of the one we see. Again, a single line of dialog, but either they forgot or expected us to. Considering the era, either is possible.
They (Sam and his wife) don't seem old enough to have kids attending college.
Sam could be in his late thirties or early forties since Kirk was 33-34 per canon. His wife Aurelan was played by Joan Swift (11 May 1933 – 26 June 2016) who would have been 33 during filming. At that age, it's possible for her having three children over 12, but, she could be about the same age as Sam and simply looks younger. Where are the other two boys? Who knows; it's just lucky that they are not on Deneva.
