• Welcome! The TrekBBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans.
    If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Why do you rank TFF highly?

Really good discussion today.

I’d love to see an alternate story or graphic novel developed on the general TFF concept. They did that with “City on the Edge of Forever” (Ellison’s original script adaptation) and they retooled several Trek stories for comics in the Kelvinverse.

I think that would be a very interesting venture.
 
Does the novelization described Kirk, Spock and McCoy's motivations?

Perhaps not in the way you are looking for. It goes into more detail about what we see on screen. It also gives us more information on why Spock is not 'enticed' by Sybok's gift. Perhaps that's something that you can say hearkens all the way back to TMP and Spock's encounter with V'ger. One of the few things that seemed to carry over from TMP to TWOK was Spock's discovery that logic is not the end of wisdom, but just the beginning, and he finally finds peace between his human half and Vulcan half. The novel does a good job explaining that the reason Spock does not follow Sybok is he has found that peace, and he has also made peace with Sarek. It does a much better job explaining why Sulu, Uhura and Chekov follow Sybok. It actually describes their 'pain' to us as well, and how Sybok is not a true villain. It does a better job explaining their motivations. I don't recall all the details there, though in Chekov's case I do recall it was him being forced to follow Khan in TWOK (and makes him reluctant to 'betray' Kirk in TFF, though he comes around).

I understand Sybok's motivations but what I wanted to learn more about Kirk's motivations, his son was murdered on Genesis where his best friend Spock was resurrected, I can imagine the conflict there. If the planet didn't explode the same process could've happened to David. What happened to Spock was a miracle, it was something Sybok and everyone in the story should be talking about, he's the elephant in the room, Damian!!!

Sadly I don't recall that it does that fully. The book does a lot of things, but that it does not get into that a whole lot. The closest the novel gets is when Sybok approaches Kirk to share his pain, Kirk is keenly aware of what Sybok is likely to expose him to. The death of David is still an open wound and Kirk does not want to relive that. Partly it's because it was a traumatic experience for him. He just made amends with David and then David was murdered. But partly it really is because Kirk realizes, as he says in the movie, that pain is part of who we are. But as we learn in TUC, he still has not dealt with the loss adequately, not until the end of TUC when he finally lets David RIP.

I'm trying to recall if anything of Spock's resurrection shows up in the novel in the way you ask, and I just can't think of anything other than the little bits we see in the movie. He's still adjusting in some ways, but we saw that in the film as well.

By the time they reach 'Sha-ka-ree' their motivation becomes one of simple curiosity.

Spock should be as intrigued as everyone else and would be conflicted between his loyalty to Kirk and his brother.

I think again, the novel does a good job here explaining that Sybok really doesn't know his brother anymore. Spock has grown since Sybok last saw him and his encounter with V'ger changed him forever. His resurrection probably changed him in other ways as well, and is a major event, but like I said, that's a story line that the movie just doesn't get into. I agree, there was more that could have been done with that. V'ger was a life changing event for him, so should his resurrection. But by and large, other than still adjusting, it's basically Spock as he was before his death.

How about McCoy, the movie touch on the illness of his father but it's not enough, I would love to know if he was conflicted between science and his faith. None of these interesting issues many medical and science professionals go through all of the time was never even invited, a tale like that should be the heart of the movie.

Maybe a bit. In the book McCoy is torn because he is a doctor, and a son. He is sworn to preserve life but he wanted his father to retain a shred of dignity and he decides to let him go. The tragedy is a cure for his father's disease was found soon after. That was something that haunted McCoy since it happened, something he never shared with anyone. So it's more a conflict between his duties as a doctor, and him being a son.

As I mentioned earlier, the climbing of the mountain and falling was a nice foreshadow for things to come and was never explored, and finding God within is a cop out and a betrayal of the concept because the journey and its obstacles and what surrounds them should've been the meaning but we have to see something.

Yeah, unfortunately the movie didn't do a good job tying that together.

The movie demanded a divine intervention sequence to occur and it was never approached??? Maybe the novelization had those things, you know the elements of having faith.

I'll have to reread the novel again sometime. I really don't recall how much of that the novel gets into. I'd be curious now to see how much it gets into more overtly. I haven't read it in years and only recall certain things about it.
 
Curiosity got the better of me so I pulled out my novelization and re-read the chapter where Sybok exposes Spock and McCoy to their pain. Nothing about Spock's resurrection there. In addition to Kirk's pain at losing David, the novel also noted his thoughts about the destruction of the Enterprise and losing Carol Marcus a 2nd time cross his mind.

A few other things of note. Sybok notes the Great Barrier is a representation basically of our fears, something to be overcome. While Kirk and Spock try to argue it is a real 'thing' that will destroy the ship, and not just a challenge to overcome. In the novel the trip is more harrowing. At one point an ominous darkness passes over the ship and they fear they are about to be destroyed by a black hole at the center of the galaxy. They even get a sense of fear and foreboding. Then suddenly they pass through into blinding light before seeing the planet and a lone star. Spock says that this is impossible and McCoy reminds him of what they just went through was impossible, yet here they are.

It's been years since I last read it so maybe I'll re-read it again to see if I can find any more insights into the things STEPhon has asked about because I'm curious myself. Just re-reading the section about McCoy and Spock's pain reminded me of a few things. Sybok, for one, was a scientific genius, which is how he was able to come up with a shield modification to withstand the barrier. And later on when they encounter the entity Sybok is wrapped up in the joy of the moment, but even he briefly wonders how "God" did not know how they got there. Shouldn't "God" know that already? But he quickly puts it out of his mind.
 
Yeah, Sybok comes up with a clever way to go through the barrier and then the dumb Klingon does too... So maybe it wasn't so clever...

Why is it that there's always a barrier, btw?

What happened to: if you score high on the psych tests you become a god when you go through the barrier? Or does that only apply to external barriers?
 
Yeah, Sybok comes up with a clever way to go through the barrier and then the dumb Klingon does too... So maybe it wasn't so clever...

Why is it that there's always a barrier, btw?

What happened to: if you score high on the psych tests you become a god when you go through the barrier? Or does that only apply to external barriers?

I like the Q Continuum novels explanation: both barriers are created by the Q, one to imprison "God", the other to exile/protect fus from another being (or two if you add the one from the Shatnerverse novels).
 
I like the Q Continuum novels explanation: both barriers are created by the Q, one to imprison "God", the other to exile/protect fus from another being (or two if you add the one from the Shatnerverse novels).

Yeah, the galactic barrier was created to protect the galaxy from a being called "O". Then there was a 3rd being, the one seen in "Day of the Dove" that was imprisoned in a different manner.

"O" was probably the most malevolent of them all. I remember he even shocked Q at how bad he was. O and Q created a challenge for a planet (I won't say who) by making their star begin dying prematurely to see just how advanced they were. And they actually succeeded in stopping the star from going nova. But O was angry made it go nova anyway. Q couldn't believe O did that. Something that pushed even Q to his limits.

I was always surprised none of the novels tied the "God" entity to the Cytheriens seen in TNG-"The Nth Degree". I always wondered what the writers of the episode intended. Did they intend on them being from the same civilization? There were some obvious similarities. TFF was still very unpopular at the time so it's possible they were told not to overtly tie it to the movie. But the novels have sometimes referenced things from TFF.
 
I like the Q Continuum novels explanation: both barriers are created by the Q, one to imprison "God", the other to exile/protect fus from another being (or two if you add the one from the Shatnerverse novels).
That was one of my favorite aspects of the novels.
 
Why do you rank TFF highly?

to hug TFF...to envelop TFF...

tough great story, fantastic score, lots of running and jumping....challenge the audience.. challenging the fans..

why do i rank TFF highly?... because im in love
 
I've heard that in the initial scenario there were actual rock people, I would have liked to see that.

Yes, in the original concept, after the Klingon torpedo goes below ground and detonates in the column of light, 6 gargoyle-like "rock men" were to spill out and chase the crew.

Apparently, they came in at close to 400K each....so they went with one. When they screen-tested the one, it didn't look good on film, so they scrapped the whole idea and had to accept that they'd need to do something different in post-production.

To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.
 
Yes, in the original concept, after the Klingon torpedo goes below ground and detonates in the column of light, 6 gargoyle-like "rock men" were to spill out and chase the crew.

Apparently, they came in at close to 400K each....so they went with one. When they screen-tested the one, it didn't look good on film, so they scrapped the whole idea and had to accept that they'd need to do something different in post-production.

To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.


Yeah, kind of glad they bagged that idea. 'Rockman' just didn't look very convincing. Today it'd probably be a snap, but back in 1989 they were still reliant on make-up mostly.

The music for that scene was reminiscent of Goldsmith's work on Alien (though I'm not sure if that was music created for the scene or if it was just stock music they added).
 
Yeah, kind of glad they bagged that idea. 'Rockman' just didn't look very convincing. Today it'd probably be a snap, but back in 1989 they were still reliant on make-up mostly.

The music for that scene was reminiscent of Goldsmith's work on Alien (though I'm not sure if that was music created for the scene or if it was just stock music they added).

I think they could have pulled off having it look like the Gozer and Zuul creatures in Ghostbusters, which wasn't too bad for the time (the close-up shots, anyway...the animated stuff in the medium shots is terrible).

I think, speaking again of "budget mismanagement," that Shatner spent a TON of money on alien make-up and costumes for Sybok's army that was supposed to be showcased during the raid on Paradise City...but because of the angle of the sun when they were finally ready for shooting, much of that footage was useless and/or you couldn't see the makeup work.

If they had allocated the time and budget differently for the rockman sequence, they probably could have pulled it off. It would have been interesting to see, at least. The "God Blob" they ended up with was definitely a rabbit-out-of-a-hat fix...but it didn't quite have the desired impact.
 
Plus how was Sybok able to hypnotize (or whatever you call it) the entire crew in so little time into submission? Or did he do a collective "share your pain" over the intercom?
 
I was always surprised none of the novels tied the "God" entity to the Cytheriens seen in TNG-"The Nth Degree". I always wondered what the writers of the episode intended. Did they intend on them being from the same civilization? There were some obvious similarities. TFF was still very unpopular at the time so it's possible they were told not to overtly tie it to the movie. But the novels have sometimes referenced things from TFF.

I've always thought both of the worlds we see near the galactic center (the Cytherians and the "magic" inhabitants of Megas Tu) must be influenced or connected to "God".

I've heard that in the initial scenario there were actual rock people, I would have liked to see that.

Then may I direct you to episode 2 of Lower Decks?
 
Plus how was Sybok able to hypnotize (or whatever you call it) the entire crew in so little time into submission? Or did he do a collective "share your pain" over the intercom?


@STEPhon IT inspired me to finally dust off my old Star Trek V novel to re-read it. I honestly don't think I've read it since before the movie came out. I remember broad swaths of the novel but she asked a number of questions that got me thinking about whether the novelization answered some of those.

Just a few notes so far--one, Sybok was heavily influenced by his mother, a Vulcan Priestess who was a Kolinahr adept, but she rejected those teachings and was basically defrocked. He made a promise to his mother that one day he would find Sha-Kah-Ree. Then it picks up at the beginning of the film when Sybok approaches the farmer (named J'Onn in the novel, who was from a planet in the Romulan Empire and he was charged with a crime and given a choice of exile to Nimbus III or execution--not much of a choice). The novel talks a bit about how Nimbus III was never a lush planet. When it was first settled it was rugged, but livable. But the people conned into going there ruined the ecosystem with over-farming and over-mining, among other things. Anyway, J'Onn's pain was that his wife had just passed away the night before from an illness that was treatable if she went back home. But she had to renounce J'Onn and divorce him. He begged her to do just that but she couldn't leave him. So she died and he blamed himself for it. It's never made entirely clear in the film but Sybok really does 'share' in their pain. He helps the person see what their pain is dispassionately and it allows them to heal. J'Onn, for instance, realizes that his wife made a choice of her own free will. It's not his fault she wanted to stay by his side. There is a bit of manipulation as well, as by releasing them of their pain it leaves the person susceptible to listen and do what he asks. Sort of a quid pro quo. And as J'Onn has nothing more to lose, as he does have a field of dry holes, it's an easy choice for him to make.

I'll share more thoughts as I continue on and try to focus on some of the questions noted here to see if the novel addresses questions the movie left unanswered.
 
@STEPhon IT inspired me to finally dust off my old Star Trek V novel to re-read it. I honestly don't think I've read it since before the movie came out. I remember broad swaths of the novel but she asked a number of questions that got me thinking about whether the novelization answered some of those.

Just a few notes so far--one, Sybok was heavily influenced by his mother, a Vulcan Priestess who was a Kolinahr adept, but she rejected those teachings and was basically defrocked. He made a promise to his mother that one day he would find Sha-Kah-Ree. Then it picks up at the beginning of the film when Sybok approaches the farmer (named J'Onn in the novel, who was from a planet in the Romulan Empire and he was charged with a crime and given a choice of exile to Nimbus III or execution--not much of a choice). The novel talks a bit about how Nimbus III was never a lush planet. When it was first settled it was rugged, but livable. But the people conned into going there ruined the ecosystem with over-farming and over-mining, among other things. Anyway, J'Onn's pain was that his wife had just passed away the night before from an illness that was treatable if she went back home. But she had to renounce J'Onn and divorce him. He begged her to do just that but she couldn't leave him. So she died and he blamed himself for it. It's never made entirely clear in the film but Sybok really does 'share' in their pain. He helps the person see what their pain is dispassionately and it allows them to heal. J'Onn, for instance, realizes that his wife made a choice of her own free will. It's not his fault she wanted to stay by his side. There is a bit of manipulation as well, as by releasing them of their pain it leaves the person susceptible to listen and do what he asks. Sort of a quid pro quo. And as J'Onn has nothing more to lose, as he does have a field of dry holes, it's an easy choice for him to make.

I'll share more thoughts as I continue on and try to focus on some of the questions noted here to see if the novel addresses questions the movie left unanswered.

There's one thing I don't get. What are these empty holes for?
 
There's one thing I don't get. What are these empty holes for?

Water. The damage to the ecosystem by the settlers caused a severe drought. The reason there were so many (at least according to the book) is that after J'Onn's wife died the night before he went out and in his grief he just starting digging hole after hole. He had gotten to the point that he was hoping he'd die of heat stroke in the height of the day.

But the short answer is water. ;)
 
A little further along in the novel and a few more insights that help out the film.

One is some of the extreme risks Kirk was taking (some were not in the film like whitewater rafting). It was noted in the book that free climbing El Capitan was typically only done by the best rock climbers, and even still they usually use safety equipment of some sort, or at the very least use a force field at the base of the mountain as a last resort safety measure. Kirk refused to use any of these. It was noted that Kirk was still having a hard time dealing with the death of David, by the fact that Carol wanted nothing to do with him and he felt she blamed him for David's death, and the loss of the Enterprise. Because of the broken condition of the new ship he felt it was unworthy of the name at that point. There was also a reference to Gillian Taylor, how he was attracted to her, but he wondered if it was just as a distraction, and that now she was too involved with the new Cetacean Institute on Earth trying to repopulate that Humpback's that she simply didn't have time for him.

I think the idea was that Kirk was trying to prove to himself that he was still alive by taking all those risks.

Also, it presents the introduction of the Romulan representative, Caithlin Dar, in a bit more detail and it was noted that she had a human grandfather (though the timing seems wrong for that since the re-initiation of contact between the Federation and the Romulan Empire was just about 20 years prior, during "Balance of Terror" which I think was in 2266 or 67, while TFF took place in 2286 or 87 I believe it was--hardly enough time to have a human grandfather unless they met prior to "Balance of Terror" and kept their contact a secret, which I guess was possible). Anyway, Dar was a bit naive, thinking she was going to come in and change the world (which admittedly was seen in the film as well). At first she didn't like Talbot, but she revised her opinion of him as she spoke with him a bit more just before Sybok came into the picture. That scene played out in the novel much as it did in the movie. It was noted that Sybok used his unique, um, ability on the rest of his followers, which is why he had so many.
 
A little further along in the novel and a few more insights that help out the film.

One is some of the extreme risks Kirk was taking (some were not in the film like whitewater rafting). It was noted in the book that free climbing El Capitan was typically only done by the best rock climbers, and even still they usually use safety equipment of some sort, or at the very least use a force field at the base of the mountain as a last resort safety measure. Kirk refused to use any of these. It was noted that Kirk was still having a hard time dealing with the death of David, by the fact that Carol wanted nothing to do with him and he felt she blamed him for David's death, and the loss of the Enterprise. Because of the broken condition of the new ship he felt it was unworthy of the name at that point. There was also a reference to Gillian Taylor, how he was attracted to her, but he wondered if it was just as a distraction, and that now she was too involved with the new Cetacean Institute on Earth trying to repopulate that Humpback's that she simply didn't have time for him.

I think the idea was that Kirk was trying to prove to himself that he was still alive by taking all those risks.

Also, it presents the introduction of the Romulan representative, Caithlin Dar, in a bit more detail and it was noted that she had a human grandfather (though the timing seems wrong for that since the re-initiation of contact between the Federation and the Romulan Empire was just about 20 years prior, during "Balance of Terror" which I think was in 2266 or 67, while TFF took place in 2286 or 87 I believe it was--hardly enough time to have a human grandfather unless they met prior to "Balance of Terror" and kept their contact a secret, which I guess was possible). Anyway, Dar was a bit naive, thinking she was going to come in and change the world (which admittedly was seen in the film as well). At first she didn't like Talbot, but she revised her opinion of him as she spoke with him a bit more just before Sybok came into the picture. That scene played out in the novel much as it did in the movie. It was noted that Sybok used his unique, um, ability on the rest of his followers, which is why he had so many.

I am very skeptical of repopulation with only one couple, to begin with. studies have shown that (especially for an evolved species) you need at least a hundred unrelated specimens to start with or your species will decline because of excessive inbreeding. So unless they made many trips to Earth's past to bring other humpback whales, it won't work.
 
If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Sign up / Register


Back
Top