Spoilers The Falcon and Winter Soldier discussion

[Grendelsbayne]

Not my take.

The Flag Smashers wanted something different from the powers that be. The status quo had already broken down and they just wanted a different way forward.

Sure, the Flag Smasher movement has good points. That's important, since their popular support would be non-sensical without it, and it's a nice touch in general. But I don't think the writers were ever sitting down to write Karli Morgenthau as the kind of villain who people wouldn't feel sure is truly a villain. The fact that she goes too far because of her human failings is the whole point. Like John Walker, she's an image of what 'Captain America' could be if it weren't for Steve Rogers' (or Sam Wilson's) innate goodness and fairmindedness.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

Like John Walker,

Except Walker is not as bad as she is. He might be an out of control Captain America but Karli is frankly starting to come off as a potential Red Skull 2.0.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Google tells me that Captain America's shield is made from 54 million dollars worth of Vabranium.

Why is Sam having Money problems?

Sell. The. Shield.

 

[Guy Gardener]

You gotta remember that the Flag Smashers are from the 80s. Actually the group was called Ultimatum, and the caped asshole in charge was called Flag Smasher.

So...

What they actually did was really fricking clever.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

Except Walker is not as bad as she is. He might be an out of control Captain America but Karli is frankly starting to come off as a potential Red Skull 2.0.

There are differences of degree absolutely. Although, at this point, unless John does a totally unexpected 180 he would appear to be just a few steps behind her on the same path of corruption.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

Except Walker is not as bad as she is. He might be an out of control Captain America but Karli is frankly starting to come off as a potential Red Skull 2.0.

Both are murderers, no matter the motivation or emotions at play when the act was committed. Moreover, Walker is not just acting as a beat cop trying to arrest a jaywalker--by making a choice to forever alter his physiology with the serum, he--a man who has expressed feeling powerless/the advantage Bucky, the Dora Milaje & the FS had over him--makes him an ideal candidate for a Skull-like personality. He wanted to "improve" himself not for an imagined greater good, but due to his need to impose his will over others. Being one with significant entitlement issues, the second he is reprimanded for the murder he committed (and asked to hand over the symbol of what he believes is All That Is Good About America--because he was damaging its legacy), he could not stand down. He attacked and attempted to kill Sam and Bucky, and still held defiant resentment over being called out about his behavior/act at the hearing.

No remorse--just defense and demanding. .

Karli and Walker are closer than one would have thought a few episodes ago.

 

[StarMan]

Just wanted to express how much I've enjoyed this series. A testament to the fact impressive action and solid, mature character work aren't mutually exclusive. No shortage of grey shades in this - certainly provoked a few discussions with my SO.

Gutted next week is the end.

 

[Jayson1]

I'm only two episodes in, and I don't particularly see why I'm supposed to think of the Flag Smashers as bad guys. So far they've... robbed a bank, and stolen medicine to give to marginalized people. I'm pretty sure we've seen every single Avenger commit worse crimes. And their stated goal is to end nationalism and unite the world under a sense of common brotherhood.

They have killed innocent people.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

There are differences of degree absolutely.

Walker's act of murder was flying off in a rage over Lamar's death, Karli always goes for premediated murder.

makes him an ideal candidate for a Skull-like personality.

Red Skull wanted to take over the world Walker is just going too far trying to stop terrorists and sounding like a movie cop on steroids the only one close to talking world domination is Karli.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

Walker's act of murder was flying off in a rage over Lamar's death, Karli always goes for premediated murder.



Red Skull wanted to take over the world Walker is just going too far trying to stop terrorists and sounding like a movie cop on steroids the only one close to talking world domination is Karli.

Karli started with rage over Momma Donya's death and escalated from there. I don't see any indication at all that Walker isn't also still escalating. Maybe he'll stop before he becomes just as big of a murderer as her. Maybe he won't. We'll see.

 

[Anwar]

It just occurred to me, when this series was in development and we were all wondering what Zemo's role would be some of us thought that he'd take the Red Skull's role from the original John Walker storyline in the 80s in that he'd be the one to corrupt Walker in a deliberate attempt to sully Captain America's image.

While it didn't go exactly as we thought it would....isn't that what still happened? Zemo inadvertently got Walker to the Super Soldier treatment, which partly caused him to go berserk and do something that sullied Captain America's image.

 

[Noname Given]

It's a misstep in my opinion, and one of very few in a fine series.

The ambiguous nature of whether the antagonists actually were "bad guys" was a plus point.

I suppose you could still argue their case, but it's much harder now.

IDK - if anything it really displays how a basically good person can become radicalized by events in their life and that's what the characters arc pretty much displays front and center. Most people aren't born 'evil'; and most to perform questionable acts don't see themselves as evil.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

Karli started with rage over Momma Donya's death and escalated from there.

That ship sailed when she supervillain ranted about how they were in her way, thought threatening Sam's family was a good negotiation tactic, decided to murder Walker before that, and is currently offering up Sam's head to get extra muscle for her current terrorists attack.

All Walker seems to be doing is gearing up to fight the Flagsmashers again becuase he thinks this will somehow fix everything and probably get in another fight with Sam and Bucky when they inevitably try to stop him.

Plus its kind of hard to use getting in a shouting match with senator asshole against him when the guy's next scene is responding to people criticizing him wanting to move millions of people around without thought of the consequences by then telling them they don't need a vote on it he can just call the military and do it any way. Aka Contessa was probably right about him only coming down on Walker becuase the optics and is pretty much connected to just about everything going wrong in this show in some way.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Seems odd to me that a Senator is the USA's pointman on this.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

Seems odd to me that a Senator is the USA's pointman on this.

They just probably wanted to use the guy already associated with everything bad in the asshole politician role.

Lets not forget he was also the one who Sam gave the shield to to put in a museum only for him to turn around and make Walker the new Cap which makes him chairing the committee meeting striping Walker of the tittle feel more like an ass covering than actual concern Captain America's image.

 

[Nerys Myk]

They just probably wanted to use the guy already associated with everything bad in the asshole politician role.

Lets not forget he was also the one who Sam gave the shield to to put in a museum only for him to turn around and make Walker the new Cap which makes him chairing the committee meeting striping Walker of the tittle feel more like an ass covering than actual concern Captain America's image.

Strikes me as more of an Executive Branch than Legislative branch purview.

 

[Anwar]

That ship sailed when she supervillain ranted about how they were in her way, thought threatening Sam's family was a good negotiation tactic, decided to murder Walker before that, and is currently offering up Sam's head to get extra muscle for her current terrorists attack

Zemo did worse, and fans would've been fine if he escaped and ran off to fight again. He's been "forgiven" effectively.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

That ship sailed when she supervillain ranted about how they were in her way, thought threatening Sam's family was a good negotiation tactic, decided to murder Walker before that, and is currently offering up Sam's head to get extra muscle for her current terrorists attack.

All Walker seems to be doing is gearing up to fight the Flagsmashers again becuase he thinks this will somehow fix everything and probably get in another fight with Sam and Bucky when they inevitably try to stop him.

Plus its kind of hard to use getting in a shouting match with senator asshole against him when the guy's next scene is responding to people criticizing him wanting to move millions of people around without thought of the consequences by then telling them they don't need a vote on it he can just call the military and do it any way. Aka Contessa was probably right about him only coming down on Walker becuase the optics and is pretty much connected to just about everything going wrong in this show in some way.

And his justification flew out the window when he started lying about what crime people committed and literally tried to kill Sam and Bucky (just to hold on to a shield which he doesn't actually need if his real goal is only to stop terrorists). He then repeatedly had a breakdown about the fact that he *is* Captain America and no one else, which is very much Red Skull territory (being superior over being right). The morality of the people he goes after isn't relevant (Karli's targets started with actually guilty people, too).

 

[Hartzilla2007]

which is very much Red Skull territory

Red Skull proclaimed himself a god and rightful ruler of humanity and was planning on burning the world down to get them to bow down to him, Walker is again acting like a movie cowboy cop on steroids.

He isn't Red Skull until he starts ranting about a new world order.

Karli's targets started with actually guilty people, too

Yes lets be sympathetic to the chick going on about how great things were when half of humanity was dead and who is giving the textbook they were in my way justifications every bloody handed authoritarian gives while building a throne of corpses.

 

[Morpheus 02]

Like my post about the latest Black Lightning episode, I had some thoughts I wanted to type out before I read and replied to everyone else’s. (There was a lot I wanted to skip as well…hope the new episode got us off the tangents)



As opposed to Snyder League, where it seemed either a bloated movie, or a cutoff duology, The format of THIS show seems just the right amount of time, where we can have this “slow” episode before the finale. Even with the fight scene at the beginning and the training, there is relatively little action in this episode, and you know what? that is just fine.

We expound on what makes “Uncle Sam” (I am sure that was VERY intentional ) a great fit as Captain America. It’s not super human strength… it is his representation of America… rallying his small town community, which can easily be translated to the neighborhood of a big city, his sense of history, and what things to let go of (but still learn from) and which things to fight to preserve. Family is also hugely important: The way his nephews pretend to play Captain America (being a little “naughty”), but later literally look up to him later in pride, Sam is seeing what that mantle means, and why it’s “ok” for him to take it.


We see Sam once again use his therapy experience in helping Bucky, and it was nice that they had the Defining the Relationship moment (where they will have the friendly fire banter that Steve had with Bucky, along with all that came with it, especially respect)

Also, his time with Isaiah Bradley was huge too… helping him respect and mourn the past, but still having the same type of idealism that Steve Rogers had in fighting for a better society, and living that out (as opposed to the deception that is in Walker’s life).


Honestly, I feel like Anthony Mackie has a limited range as an actor. For example, his robot in Outside the Wire felt like the exact same character I see him in most movies. It’s contrast to say, Chadwick Boseman, who between Black Panther, Marshall and even the awful Gods of Egypt, showed a great range of acting talent. But that said, I think Mackie defines the Falcon role as much as RDJ did with Iron Man. He is a perfect for this role, and I look forward to how he will fit in the MCU in the future. I would hope taking an even larger role than before.


I saw an interview where Daniel Bruhl talks about the Zemo dance…but was extremely coy about his future role in the series. So it looks like he is out – for now. Bucky leaving him alive, showing he has taken back control of himself, was a nice way to hand him over to the Dora Milajae. So Bucky might not be welcome in Wakanda for a while…I am sure that will clear up in the future. And Zemo is still in the mx if they need him as a villain again (or for dance moves).


This episode is at least an A for me…maybe A+. Between this and the last episode, we should ALL be convinced that Sam should be Captain America. I will be interested next episode to see how they position him for future major Marvel events.

Question – is this the first end credit scene of the show? Normally, we have fast forwarded, but seeing John Walker’s bootleg shield…so a preview for the final episode? Or dropping something for a future project (which Marvel credit scenes often do, dropping a hint for a different movie, rather than the sequel, if not following up on something previous in the movie))


Question 2 – Is this #6 or 7 of the Marvel Projects that Sebastian Stan signed up for? Curious how much more we will see Bucky on screen for sure?