TOS Timeline Questions

[Damian]

The thing about Probe is that it was written as a direct sequel to TVH, but it was delayed so much by Richard Arnold-mandated rewrites (eventually even being taken away from Margaret and ghost-rewritten by another author) that TFF happened in the interim, and so Probe had a few token references to TFF's events tossed in while still being a TVH sequel.

True. It was just amusing the historian noted it was sometime before TUC (which was released before this novel as well) when the timeframe is far closer to TFF then TUC. I guess since TUC was released not long before this book they wanted to link it to that in some way as well. But it's a bit misleading as it might make one think it somehow leads into TUC in some way.

 

[Leto_II]

True. It was just amusing the historian noted it was sometime before TUC (which was released before this novel as well) when the timeframe is far closer to TFF then TUC. I guess since TUC was released not long before this book they wanted to link it to that in some way as well. But it's a bit misleading as it might make one think it somehow leads into TUC in some way.

Plus Sulu is still just a helmsman (and holding a Commander’s rank) in this novel, which instantly places it at a minimum of at least 3-4 years prior to The Undiscovered Country (due to Sulu having commanded the Excelsior on a three-year exploratory mission as his first major assignment, per the movie’s opening log), and we know that there were something close to seven years in between TFF and TUC, as well.

 

[JD]

I never thought they looked that much older, except Nimoy and Doohan. To me they seemed to age more between TMP and TWOK, because then the makeup wasn't done to hide their age.

Maybe it's just the style change then, but I thought they did. The aging in Wrath of Khan at least makes since in universe since the movies take a place a lot farther apart.

Besides, you could say the same about the later movies. TWOK through TFF came out over the course of 7 years, with the actors visibly aging from film to film, yet in-story the time span is less than a year (going by in-film evidence rather than the bizarre Okudachron dating scheme)

.
I never really noticed them aging that much between TWoK and The Final Frontier.

 

[mastadge]

I know this is an older thread but as a follow-up question: has it ever been established how much time passes between the Khitomer Conference in STVI and the Enterprise-B launch in Generations? STVI is apparently Sept 2263 and the Ent-B launch the same year . . . I'd be curious what happened in between. Was it like a three-month gap? A Christmas shakedown?

 

[Christopher]

I know this is an older thread but as a follow-up question: has it ever been established how much time passes between the Khitomer Conference in STVI and the Enterprise-B launch in Generations? STVI is apparently Sept 2263 and the Ent-B launch the same year . . . I'd be curious what happened in between. Was it like a three-month gap? A Christmas shakedown?

All we know is that they were both apparently in 2293 (you got the "9" upside-down there). In my personal chronology, I put TUC in March and GEN in November, but I think that's arbitrary.

 

[F. King Daniel]

As a fan of Enterprise: The First Adventure and Strangers From the Sky, that's my headcanon. McCoy was CMO, but on leave at the time of "Where No Man..."

I've read fan timelines which say "Where No Man..." was a pre-5ym adventure (not unlike Nibiru in Star Trek Into Darkness), explaining the different staff, roles, uniforms and ship design. But then I also like Q-Squared, which explained it as being one of the 4 alternate timelines in that book (hence James R. Kirk)

There have also been several novels where Kirk and McCoy meet at Starfleet Academy (also in the Kelvinverse reboot), so that's kind of etched into my brain. I'm sure Strange New Worlds will give us another version of the TOS crew and their first meetings sooner or later.

 

[Damian]

As a fan of Enterprise: The First Adventure and Strangers From the Sky, that's my headcanon. McCoy was CMO, but on leave at the time of "Where No Man..."

I've read fan timelines which say "Where No Man..." was a pre-5ym adventure (not unlike Nibiru in Star Trek Into Darkness), explaining the different staff, roles, uniforms and ship design. But then I also like Q-Squared, which explained it as being one of the 4 alternate timelines in that book (hence James R. Kirk)

There have also been several novels where Kirk and McCoy meet at Starfleet Academy (also in the Kelvinverse reboot), so that's kind of etched into my brain. I'm sure Strange New Worlds will give us another version of the TOS crew and their first meetings sooner or later.

I generally considered "Where No Man Has Gone Before" as being pre-5YM. Granted, part of that was me taking the VHS videos (where I first saw most of the original series) literally in that it was episode 2 and there was no Kirk monologue on the VHS (I learned years later that was actually the opening during at least half the first season, but I didn't know that at the time). And part of it was the set design/uniforms.

My Brother's Keeper also went with that idea. After the events of WNMHGB the Enterprise was on it's way back to Earth for a refit before they were to start their 5 YM (explaining the changes in set design, uniform and crew replacements). The Captain's Oath left it a bit more vague, but I was left with the impression WNMHGB was pre-5YM as well (though the events in TCO differed in other ways from MBK).

To me, it makes sense. It's the easiest way to explain in story the changes in the ship, the uniforms and the crew. In MBK Kirk was in command of the Enterprise for several months, maybe just under a year. He was just given command of the Enterprise so it seems to make sense that they would want to have a bit of a shakedown before sending him off on an extended mission. Originally when I read MBK, which was about a year or two before TCO came out, I just figured the Enterprise was his first command. I don't disagree with the idea with him having a prior command like in TCO. I just made an assumption. And in retrospect, MBK's is more focused on Kirk's career up the ranks before he becomes Captain and I don't recall anything precluding Kirk having a prior command in MBK, it's simply not addressed. TCO obviously has a prior command for Kirk explicitly, though Kirk's characteristics are similar in both stories (which is why I always said Christopher and Michael Jan Friedman appear to have the same view of Kirk as a straight shooter and not a maverick).

Anyway, I'm getting off track here--however similar both stories are or aren't, after reading both it makes more sense to me that WNMHGB was pre-5ym. Sometimes the simplest explanation is the best to go with, that is, the reason for the differences between WNMHGB and "The Corbomite Maneuver" is simply that the ship had an overhaul before formally starting their 5YM.

 

[Christopher]

The Captain's Oath left it a bit more vague, but I was left with the impression WNMHGB was pre-5YM as well

I was under editorial instructions to leave it vague, so I had to delete my explicit reference to WNM being pre-5YM.

 

[Damian]

I was under editorial instructions to leave it vague, so I had to delete my explicit reference to WNM being pre-5YM.

I remember you mentioned that. I guess Friedman had no such instructions because his trilogy explicitly said it was pre-5YM.

I imagine a large part of that was because his trilogy was released years ago, was it 20 years ago (they were still technically part of the numbered novels). I guess there has been more focus on the actual 5YM, I noticed, since the Abrams films came out.

In any event, at least they let you keep it vague enough to leave it up to the reader's imagination. There's nothing in TCO that establishes it one way or the other so that works for me.

I'm trying to recall now, I guess Enterprise: The First Adventure and Strangers from the Sky were pre-5YM as well. I don't think E:TFA said anything about the 5YM and I'm trying to recall did SFTK say anything about it being pre-5YM?

It seems that at least during that period of time the thinking seemed to be WNMHGB was pre-5YM if I'm remembering those novels right.

To be honest, I was actually a bit annoyed that on the remastered episodes they added Kirk's monologue to WNMHGB. I know it's a silly thing to be upset about, but for years through the first several released there was none, then suddenly they added it in. Honestly, that....and the set design/uniform/crew changes...always had me thinking it was pre-5YM, and now they muddied up the waters a bit. Engineers....they love to change things (um, I mean studios )

 

[Christopher]

I remember you mentioned that. I guess Friedman had no such instructions because his trilogy explicitly said it was pre-5YM.

Different editor (John Ordover, I think).

I'm trying to recall now, I guess Enterprise: The First Adventure and Strangers from the Sky were pre-5YM as well. I don't think E:TFA said anything about the 5YM and I'm trying to recall did SFTK say anything about it being pre-5YM?

It seems that at least during that period of time the thinking seemed to be WNMHGB was pre-5YM if I'm remembering those novels right.

No, I don't think they were that specific about it. I think the idea developed later. Back then, it was still pretty vague just which years of the 5YM TOS covered, or if it even really lasted five years (there were a number of novels that claimed to be years after TOS but still in a pre-TMP setting).

To be honest, I was actually a bit annoyed that on the remastered episodes they added Kirk's monologue to WNMHGB. I know it's a silly thing to be upset about, but for years through the first several released there was none, then suddenly they added it in. Honestly, that....and the set design/uniform/crew changes...always had me thinking it was pre-5YM, and now they muddied up the waters a bit. Engineers....they love to change things (um, I mean studios )

The thing is, title narrations and such aren't actually diegetic parts of the story. It was never actually stated in a TOS or TAS episode proper that they were on a 5-year mission; that was never mentioned in actual dialogue until ST:TMP, Voyager: "Q2," and then STID and Discovery.

And I am absolutely certain that if TOS had been a bigger hit and gotten to a sixth season, they would've just kept using the "5-year mission" narration in the titles and totally ignored it in the episodes, maintaining the sense of timelessness and perpetual present that was common in the TV of the era (like Run for Your Life, where the hero had 18 months to live but the show ran 3 seasons, or M*A*S*H, an 11-year series about a 3-year war).

 

[Damian]

The thing is, title narrations and such aren't actually diegetic parts of the story.

Yeah, I know that now. Just at the time I took it literally. And since the title narration wasn't in WNMHGB, along with the other changes, I literally assumed that was a pre 5YM story (ditto for "The Cage").

As an aside, it kind of annoys me too that the 5YM has become the standard for the 23rd century it seems. I used to just think the 5YM was a 2260's thing. Something Starfleet tried out maybe as they expanded their exploration arms. I didn't figure it would last decades.

I just assumed prior to that missions were of indeterminate lengths of time, depending on where the ship was going and when it would need to return to base (among other factors). And after the 2260s maybe they started getting longer, or maybe the 5YM was too long...who knows. When did the 5YM suddenly become the gold standard for all missions in the 23rd century.

 

[Christopher]

As an aside, it kind of annoys me too that the 5YM has become the standard for the 23rd century it seems. I used to just think the 5YM was a 2260's thing. Something Starfleet tried out maybe as they expanded their exploration arms. I didn't figure it would last decades.

Who said it did? The only canonical mentions of any 5-year missions besides the one in TOS are in the 2250s, in Kelvin and Discovery. And STID depicts 5-year exploration missions as a brand-new program, while both it and DSC depict it as a specific mission profile that isn't shared by all ships. It seems to be distinct to the Constitution class, which are built to be long-range, multi-purpose exploration/survey/defense/support vessels capable of extended deep space patrols. (In my novels, I've posited that 5 years is the recommended maximum between overhauls.)

 

[Greg Cox]

And I am absolutely certain that if TOS had been a bigger hit and gotten to a sixth season, they would've just kept using the "5-year mission" narration in the titles and totally ignored it in the episodes, maintaining the sense of timelessness and perpetual present that was common in the TV of the era (like Run for Your Life, where the hero had 18 months to live but the show ran 3 seasons, or M*A*S*H, an 11-year series about a 3-year war).

LITTLE HOUSE ON THE PRAIRIE ran the same credit sequence, with the adorable young children romping through the grass, for its entire run, even after the daughters had grown up, gotten married, gone blind, etc. . . .

 

[Damian]

Who said it did? The only canonical mentions of any 5-year missions besides the one in TOS are in the 2250s, in Kelvin and Discovery. And STID depicts 5-year exploration missions as a brand-new program, while both it and DSC depict it as a specific mission profile that isn't shared by all ships. It seems to be distinct to the Constitution class, which are built to be long-range, multi-purpose exploration/survey/defense/support vessels capable of extended deep space patrols. (In my novels, I've posited that 5 years is the recommended maximum between overhauls.)

I don't know, it just seems to have proliferated a lot farther than just a period of time. Maybe you're right, it just seems now the 5YM is something Starfleet did for much longer than just a decade. Almost like the assumption now is in the 23rd century the 5YM was being done all the time. Maybe I'm reading too much into it

LITTLE HOUSE ON THE PRAIRIE ran the same credit sequence, with the adorable young children romping through the grass, for its entire run, even after the daughters had grown up, gotten married, gone blind, etc. . . .

Part of it might be just when I finally watched the original series. I first saw it in full on VHS in the late 1980s. And when I saw it the 5YM was part of every episode except "The Cage" and "Where No Man Has Gone Before"--and with the other things I mentioned I just assumed those were pre-5YM stories. I actually didn't give it much thought beyond that.

While I wouldn't call it serialized by any stretch of the imagination, Star Trek did have a certain 'flow' for lack of a better word when I watched it in production order (I did watch it once in airing order, but for some reason it felt 'off' to me). So WNMHGB always took place for me prior to the series proper, as a 2nd pilot, and I figured the 5YM started with "The Corbomite Maneuver" and on from there.

Originally I just figured the 3 year TV series just stretched out to 5 years. I didn't really think of the 1st season as only just year 1, 2nd season as mission year 2. I just thought maybe Season 1 was the first year and a half or so of the mission---and so on. Then I saw the animated series a few years later and at the time I didn't realize that was 2 seasons. I thought it was only 1 season. Then when I started reading the novels I thought maybe they filled things out for the full 5 years (this was before I realized novels weren't actually part of the 'canon'--for a time when I first started I thought novels were part of everything else, that they were, well, canon--I mean, I hadn't heard the word canon when it comes to Star Trek until maybe the mid 1990s).

The film First Contact was really the first time I learned the novels were not canon, when man's first contact was not what we saw in the prelude to Strangers from the Sky (which I later learned itself was adopted from something previous).

Hell, for the first few years I really thought in Star Trek history man's first contact with aliens was when the UNSS Icarus travelled to Alpha Centauri. I was a bit non-plussed to see First Contact's version. I hadn't read a lot of books to that point and I just thought the SFTS version was the official Star Trek version.

 

[Christopher]

I don't know, it just seems to have proliferated a lot farther than just a period of time. Maybe you're right, it just seems now the 5YM is something Starfleet did for much longer than just a decade. Almost like the assumption now is in the 23rd century the 5YM was being done all the time.

Some prose works and a lot of fan works have made that assumption, but I thought we were talking about canon.

 

[Damian]

Some prose works and a lot of fan works have made that assumption, but I thought we were talking about canon.

Sorry, I guess I was kind of grouping it all together. Since I kind of accept a lot of novels into the continuity I follow I may be guilty of exaggerating how much it actually appears in 'canon' works. Adding novels, it makes it quite a bit more--but probably not as much from the canon itself.

 

[Stevil2001]

Originally I just figured the 3 year TV series just stretched out to 5 years. I didn't really think of the 1st season as only just year 1, 2nd season as mission year 2. I just thought maybe Season 1 was the first year and a half or so of the mission---and so on.

I actually think this is the case. One of the few concrete time references in TOS is that "Day of the Dove" takes place about three years after "Errand of Mercy." (In terms of production time, the interval is only eighteen months or so.) If the interval is exactly three years, this would mean that 1) the first 26 episodes of season 1 occupy the first year, and episodes 12 through 24 of Season 3, plus all of the cartoon, occupy the fifth. There's just not the room for something like the Okudas' assumption that we saw years three through five, or IDW's that we saw years one through three.

 

[Christopher]

One of the few concrete time references in TOS is that "Day of the Dove" takes place about three years after "Errand of Mercy."

Well, Kang's the one who says "three years," so he could've meant Klingon years, which could be shorter.

Although for some reason, the novels ended up treating the Klingon "Year of Kahless" as exactly the same length as an Earth year, to my annoyance.

 

[Damian]

I actually think this is the case. One of the few concrete time references in TOS is that "Day of the Dove" takes place about three years after "Errand of Mercy." (In terms of production time, the interval is only eighteen months or so.) If the interval is exactly three years, this would mean that 1) the first 26 episodes of season 1 occupy the first year, and episodes 12 through 24 of Season 3, plus all of the cartoon, occupy the fifth. There's just not the room for something like the Okudas' assumption that we saw years three through five, or IDW's that we saw years one through three.

The Okuda's usually did some good work, but occasionally their time estimates seemed a bit off. IIRC they did something funky with the films TWOK through TFF or something, like give it too much time.

I just figured the TV series and the animated series were spread out over the 5 years, but not necessarily one season=one year. The Stardates aren't always too useful, but in general they seemed to advance from about 1200 through just prior to 6000 in the TV and animated series (though there were some outliers in the animated series that didn't make a lot of sense). But using that as a general guide it seemed 1000=1 Earth Year and so it seemed each season on that basis was a little over a year with the animated series roughly filling out the final year (and then novels filling the gaps--though, of course, these days there are far more novels during the 5YM than could possible ever fit into 5 years--maybe 50 years LOL)

Again, I realize Stardates during that period aren't the best identifier, but you could still make some general assumptions.

 

[Damian]

Well, Kang's the one who says "three years," so he could've meant Klingon years, which could be shorter.

Although for some reason, the novels ended up treating the Klingon "Year of Kahless" as exactly the same length as an Earth year, to my annoyance.

For the first part, I just assumed it's 3 Earth years. I mean, neither answer is really wrong, but I figure the intent of the writer was probably the specify 3 Earth years.

For your 2nd part, I agree. That was probably just a bit of lazy writing. They should have make it different from an Earth year.