Measure of a Man: The solution.

[JirinPanthosa]

Riker's arguments revolved around giving weight to Maddux's argument that they only saw him as a person because he looked like one. Demonstrating that if he were a talking metal box instead of human shaped nobody would even consider he had rights.

It's easy as the audience not to question the idea that Data is sentient and see Maddux as an AI-bigot, but if a 'Data' was invented tomorrow, I think 80% of the population would not only not believe it, they'd assume he was a threat to their safety.

Picard's final argument was basically "Yeah, I can't prove he's sentient the way we are. But if he is, do you really want to be the jackass in the history books who started slavery again?"

I'm not sure I'd call the androids we see in Picard slaves. It was made pretty clear that they had not re-achieved android sentience yet. Not intentionally at least, they accidentally did it a dozen times.

 

[Timo]

How is that a good thing? Enslaving people because they are stupid or ugly sounds like the perfect excuse; if the synths on Mars are being enslaved to begin with, it would appear to be because they are stupid and ugly people, not because they are not people.

That is, if they weren't people, they could have been built without people features, such as the ability to converse (no matter how stupidly). Of course, this wouldn't have helped all that much: enslaving people because they are mute isn't a big improvement... But having F-8 behave like a stupid or for some other reason socially awkward human would is pretty telling.

However, we don't really see enough to argue "enslaving". People don't get paid for working in the brave new world anyway, so there wouldn't that, even if we did get a look at the payroll. And we didn't get an outright boss-underling working arrangement, either: the synths were co-workers with humans who were engaged in equally dirty tasks and chores, and traded orders like they did barbs.

Sentience isn't a threshold issue with enslaving for these people anyway. Riker is comfortable arguing that animals should not be enslaved for feeding humans, but equally comfortable hunting and killing free-ranging animals. The question for him isn't the desire to be free and survive - it's more practically the distinction between chains and lack thereof. And we saw no chains in PIC.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[publiusr]

Now, I’m thinking Lore wound up in Data’s place—thus the Synths. There’s a tale...

 

[Skipper]

And the answer would be he chose to be in Starfleet and was made to go through the Academy, all of training, and work on various ships to reach his current rank and position. He was even awarded medals and such, would one do this for a "thing." So, clearly, at some point Data was seen as an independent being who was "allowed" to join Starfleet and go through it like any other being but *now* it's called into question if he can be allowed to quit?

This is exactly what I said in a previous thread on this argument. They already decided that Data can be enrolled in the Academy, having ranks and commanding on other people. Now his fate is decided by a person without any knoledge or expertise on the subject with an incomprehensible haste (really, they NEVER explained why they were in such an hurry).

 

[Skipper]

Really, there was ANY explanation why they were in such an hurry to decide if someone was a sentient being with proper rights or not? Couldn't she say something "Ok, no one here is really qualified for this (except Maddox, and he is a little too much partial). Let's hear some expert by subspace)"?

My original theory was the real villan of the story was the JAG. Picard was immediately hostile toward her at the begin of the episode. And knowing Picard, if he is hostile toward someone, well, this someone deserves his hostility.

She was the only in the whole universe (with the exception of Maddox) who believed that Data wasn't a sentient being. It was obvious that she HAD NO knowledge in the AI field but she deliberated in contrast with a panel of expert which twenty years before had decided that Data should be treated as sentient being, without CONSULTING ANYONE. There wasn't any emergencies, any war, ANYTHING that justifies why she rushed Picard and Riker in preparing the hearing, without waiting for an expert or more qualified people. She forced someone to prove that a friend of his didn't have the right to live. There was only one expert in the field (Maddox) that was an expert for one side of the debate and Picard couldn't call anyone.

And let's remember, before the hearing the JAG ruled in favor of Maddox, implicitly (and arrogantly) saying that a panel of expert (which decided the Data has the right to join up Star Fleet) was WRONG.

So, what changed her mind? Because in the hearing Picard did a beatiful speech, but Data was still a machine. And if there was some "unique" quality in Data which can reverse her initial judgment, why didn't she even try to talk to him?

And she said an interesting thing after the hearing:

This case has dealt with metaphysics, with questions best left to saints and philosophers. I am neither competent, nor qualified, to answer those.

With what the case was dealing was evident from the beginning. So, If she wasn't competent after the hearing, she wasn't competent before. Is she were only a bit honest she should have said something like "Do I really have to decide whether this individual is a living being with all his rights? Sorry, we pause everything and wait for more competent people on the subject".

Really, my personal theory was that she just wanted to spite Picard by having one of his crewmen and friends dissected. She then had to comply with the rules by allowing an audition that was basically a joke. After that she realized the effect she could have on her career. If she was wrong, she would forever be branded as the one who allowed a Federation citizen to be basically executed without any guilt. At this point she realized that the best thing was to declare herself "not competent" for the case (SOMETHING SHE COULD DO FROM THE BEGINNING!)

 

[JirinPanthosa]

I completely disagree with that, we see several times that in the mid 2360s when Data leaves his friends on the ship his rights are called into question. Remember Redemption. Most Toys. The majority of people off Enterprise didn’t consider him a person until later.

And you’re rather flippantly glossing over the question, at what point between toaster and Data does sentience emerge? Does Siri have rights? Any holodeck character, are you murdering them every time you end program?

It seemed very obvious that A. Those other androids were not free to quit and B. They did not come close to Data’s level of self awareness neither could they even decide any goals than those programmed into them.

Suggesting anyone unpaid is a slave is equally absurd. If you signed up to be somewhere and have the right to quit, you are by definition not a slave.

 

[Mres_was_framed!]

Really, there was ANY explanation why they were in such an hurry to decide if someone was a sentient being with proper rights or not? Couldn't she say something "Ok, no one here is really qualified for this (except Maddox, and he is a little too much partial). Let's hear some expert by subspace)"?

There wasn't any emergencies, any war, ANYTHING that justifies why she rushed Picard and Riker in preparing the hearing, without waiting for an expert or more qualified people.

Perhaps she was afraid of the Borg due to secretly knowing of them and was trying to get a precedence that would consider the Borg not truly alive. That would have REALLY brought on a conflict with Picard later on. In context of the series, I think we see this episode as more setting up a fear for the Borg.

 

[Skipper]

Perhaps she was afraid of the Borg due to secretly knowing of them and was trying to get a precedence that would consider the Borg not truly alive. That would have REALLY brought on a conflict with Picard later on. In context of the series, I think we see this episode as more setting up a fear for the Borg.

Even if she had some secret motivation, why no one wondered why the hurry? And really, if this was the reason, why she changed his mind?

 

[Skipper]

I completely disagree with that, we see several times that in the mid 2360s when Data leaves his friends on the ship his rights are called into question. Remember Redemption. Most Toys. The majority of people off Enterprise didn’t consider him a person until later.

And you’re rather flippantly glossing over the question, at what point between toaster and Data does sentience emerge? Does Siri have rights? Any holodeck character, are you murdering them every time you end program?

It seemed very obvious that A. Those other androids were not free to quit and B. They did not come close to Data’s level of self awareness neither could they even decide any goals than those programmed into them.

Suggesting anyone unpaid is a slave is equally absurd. If you signed up to be somewhere and have the right to quit, you are by definition not a slave.

I'm not sure who you are answering, but they are definitely NOT questions a JAG on a remote space station can answer in a jiffy without even consulting an expert or examining the matter more closely.

Which she DID before Picard asked for a hearing.

 

[Physics of Trekkies]

IMHO Louvois is just an idiot, that this even got as far as an official hearing, because the only other alternative would seem to be she was secretly in support of Maddox, which is hard to prove, even though she admitted to him that he was "Preaching to the choir". It's even possible Maddox staged this little stunt right when he did, because they were going to be in an area with no real legal infrastructure in place.

So either she's a complete idiot, some kind of sucker, or an inside man. Otherwise, the moment Maddox said "He can't be allowed to resign" she should've laughed in his face. He JOINED. Every other entity that has EVER joined did so with the understanding that it was their choice to serve or not. That's what "joining" means.

His rights, his sentience/sapience, who or what or how many objected to his enrollment but got outvoted, none of it matters relative to the real issue... of what Starfleet service IS... & what it is, is bloody voluntary for everyone who volunteers. Declaring otherwise literally undermines the integrity of the institution.

Whatever archaic precedents she dredges up about declaring him property almost certainly came from Starfleet property legislation about AI, not relative to service IN Starfleet.

Point being, the whole issue isn't about Data at all, it's about a crook trying to redefine what Starfleet service is, in order to further his personal ambitions, & she ruled wrong from the get go.

Yes this ^ Applause to you, sir

And I always interpreted the episode as if she was with Maddox (not in cahoots but just on his side).

I wish the episode would have ended with evidence that Maddox waited for this far out and she feels he cheated and so she denies him but only on THAT basis since she agrees ultimately but she won't let Data lose based solely on being so far from Earth

so that we could have a sequel episode (or more).

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

My original theory was the real villan of the story was the JAG. Picard was immediately hostile toward her at the begin of the episode. And knowing Picard, if he is hostile toward someone, well, this someone deserves his hostility.

She was the only in the whole universe (with the exception of Maddox) who believed that Data wasn't a sentient being.

Louvois was definately an antagonist within the situation, but IMO she was just "going only with the party line", advocated by Maddox -- somewhat implied to Starfleet's premier expert on cybernetics and AI -- and Admiral Tujiro Mamoru Nakamura, who strongly advocates for Maddox's position initially, but oddly disappears into the background once things get contentious.

 

[Skipper]

Louvois was definately an antagonist within the situation, but IMO she was just "going only with the party line", advocated by Maddox -- somewhat implied to Starfleet's premier expert on cybernetics and AI -- and Admiral Tujiro Mamoru Nakamura, who strongly advocates for Maddox's position initially, but oddly disappears into the background once things get contentious.

And still, what did make her change her idea? Because, even after the beautiful Picard's speech, Data was still a machine.

 

[Herbert]

When you break down this episode it falls apart. It makes about as much sense as Troi passing a command test and suddenly being Data's superior officer.

 

[Herbert]

And Maddox was a moron. His whole justification for denying Data's membership and claiming he was not sentient was destroyed by Picard in minutes.

 

[Skipper]

And Maddox was a moron. His whole justification for denying Data's membership and claiming he was not sentient was destroyed by Picard in minutes.

Perhaps I don't remember the details, but the fact that Data is sentient was really disputed? I believe that the point of the hearing was establishing if Data had the same rights and freedoms as all other sentient beings or if he was just Starfleet's property.

 

[Swedish Borg]

Measure of a Man is one of TNG's best episodes and, certainly, one of the best of Season 2.

But parts of it never really made a whole lot of sense to me. Riker's argument in the hearing seemed to mostly just be, "Yes, Data is a machine," which.... Wasn't in dispute. So what point is there in showing he has strength, can be taken apart and turned off? The question is does Data have or have not the ability to make a decision for his actions and future?

Picard's argument makes a bit more sense but pretty much boils down to "of we allow this to happen then we pretty much are going to create slaves." (And then he wins the case and 30 years later "PIC" pisses all over this win by having humans do just that: Create android slaves.)

Anyway, all of the argument made in Data's favor seems to be a bit too complex and heavy. It seems like the argument could be as simple as:

"Mr. Data, how did you come to be in Starfleet?"

And the answer would be he chose to be in Starfleet and was made to go through the Academy, all of training, and work on various ships to reach his current rank and position. He was even awarded medals and such, would one do this for a "thing." So, clearly, at some point Data was seen as an independent being who was "allowed" to join Starfleet and go through it like any other being but *now* it's called into question if he can be allowed to quit?

Personally, I am not convinced by the arguments of this episode at all.

Let's sum up all the things said in favor of Data being "alive" or "sentient":

1) Doctor Soong intended to create a lifeform: So what? Just because you mean to do something doesn't mean that you'll succeed. I remember when Bashir said that Data is the only machine he knows that can grow hair. So what? That is highly suspicious to me, because why would Soong put so much effort into appearances if he was confident that he had created a living being? There are dolls that grow hair, btw.

2) If Soong had a way to ensure that he could create a lifeform then he would have a way to prove it. Otherwise, it's hey, I made a lifeform, I can't prove it but I am sure of it. Yeah, I believe you.

3) Data doesn't have feelings. One of the things that characterize ALL lifeforms that we know of, including vegetables, are feelings (Yeah, even plants are affected by things analogous to fear, when they are attacked by predators, they can transmit a sort of alarm to other plants who will then turn sour to make themselves less appealing to the attackers.
The fact that Data doesn't have feelings sets him apart from all the lifeforms we know of and of course, doesn't plead in favor of him being one.

4) Unlike for instance our dreams, data's dreams don't seem to fulfill any function whatsoever other than just being there, just like his growing hair and his ability to ingest food. It's all just make-believe.

IMO, Data is just an imitation, his desire to be human, is not real for one simple reason, he doesn't have DESIRES!!! As he keeps reminding us he doesn't have any feelings. It's just more of the same nonsense.

 

[Trekker4747]

The fact that Data doesn't have feelings sets him apart from all the lifeforms we know of...

Emphasis mine. Finding new, and unique, forms of life is kind of the whole point of Starfleet.

 

[Mojochi]

Data doesn't have feelings.

Sure he does. All Soong androids were designed to possess emotions/feelings. His were just restricted for a while, as some method to keep him from becoming unstable like Lore, & to what degree he has feelings is HIGLY debatable. We see evidence of it all throughout the character's history, even when they're claiming he has none

 

[cgervasi]

And the answer would be he chose to be in Starfleet and was made to go through the Academy, all of training, and work on various ships to reach his current rank and position. He was even awarded medals and such, would one do this for a "thing." So, clearly, at some point Data was seen as an independent being who was "allowed" to join Starfleet and go through it like any other being but *now* it's called into question if he can be allowed to quit?

I don't fully understand what it was like to live in a society that didn't at least claim to respect human rights equally for all. I have read about how George Washington wasn't that interested in the issue of abolition of slavery at first, despite being interested in the topic of human liberty in general. He didn't think much about it until he had to command troops of all races. They did a great job, and he started questioning slavery. (I read about this The First Conspiracy.)

It seems like back then people with darker skin in colonies could sometimes pass as human, and then people could turn on them and treat them as sub-human. So it rings true to me that an AI android could be able to pass as a person on some occasions and then have some occasion crop up where people completely reject his rights and a sentient person. It also rings true that in Picard, long after it has been adjudicated that AI androids are entitled to the exact same rights as biological life, an unofficial caste system might persist, keeping androids from getting the equal rights they're entitled to under the law.

 

[cgervasi]

Data chose to enter Starfleet and had to work through it like anyone else. If he can choose to enter he can choose to leave.

^^this
(but then there wouldn't be a 45 minute story. )

I was a 13-year-old boy watching this when it first aired. I felt it was building up to a commando-style battle between Data and Maddox, esp when Maddox told Data contemptuously "Keep packing!". I was really disappointed that it turned into a court show.