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Spoilers The Falcon and Winter Soldier discussion

Maybe, but the dialogue gave me the impression he was locked up for doing something heroic that he wasn't supposed to do, not just locked up without any warning after having done exactly as he was told. Like, hypothetically, he had his own version of Steve's raid on the Hydra base, but instead of celebrating his success they called him dangerous and insubordinate and locked him away but still considered him an important research object.

Possible, if they wanted an excuse to hide behind. But the underlying message appears to be that white heroes get celebration tours, dance numbers and nationwide propaganda rollouts, while black heroes get buried or politely asked to return that trinket of significant historical value.

Now, I don't think the excuse that was used to put Bradley on the shelf ultimately matters, so much as that they did it. But considering the fact that he was basically erased from the history books, such that only Bucky and HYDRA seem to remember him, I'm willing to go out on a limb and speculate that either he didn't have a long and visible heroic career prior to whatever happened, or everybody who knew he existed was silenced through fear or death. I feel like if they had an excuse to expose him as a failure, or as trouble, they would have discredited him rather than erased him.

I'm not saying he just had the one mission. Nothing in the evidence says it was that limited. But people remembered Steve Rogers 70 years after the fact. Bradley was scrubbed to the point that it doesn't even appear that he was a kind of myth or fairy tale like the Winter Soldier. You can't tell me that somewhere in the African America community someone wouldn't be telling that story if someone knew it. The MCU could prove me wrong later, and I'll gladly say so when they do, but I definitely think we're supposed to interpret Bradley's dialogue as though he was just getting started when he was locked up.
 
I wonder if old man Steve Rogers knew about Bradley from meeting him in his alternative timeline. Maybe one of the reasons he gave Wilson the Shield was in part because he realized what happened to Bradley made it important for his successor to be a black American. Jason
 
There are a lot of YouTube video parody of Captain America being super racist/ homophobic/ sexest without realizing it because that was the norm when he grew up but I sincerely doubt Disney would ever do any of that in canon material. I think it has to be taken that Rogers and Barnes are so inately good they had progressive 21st century opinions in the 1930's. That's part of why Steve is so worthy.

I think something like that could have been made to work. Using terms or thoughts that may have been appropriate for progressive people living in a certain era, even though they are now outdated, could have gone a long way to helping people understand how to take historical content in context. Having Steve realize the racist context of the crows in Dumbo, for example, could have been both a humorous and poignant scene. An ongoing joke of having Steve try to update his thinking might have worked.

I remember loving the Confederate flag when I was a child because it was what was on the Dukes of Hazzard. I had no understanding of what it meant other than a symbol of the U.S. South. Similarly, swastikas were symbols of the bad guys in WWII--and although I had a passing knowledge of the holocaust I remember drawing swastikas in notebooks because I had seen them on movies and television.
 
are a facade hiding a monster ego and an authoritarian streak

Steve was weedy, suffering from all sorts of conditions from asthma to ulcers, constantly being beaten up (unless Bucky saved him), but he was Captain America before he had the shield and before he had the serum. He tried and tried again to join in ww2, he had to use his brain to make up for his physique, he chased after Erskine's killer on instinct, not because he knew he was a super soldier - he'd have done exactly the same thing a day earlier, or a year earlier. Even when he got the body to match the heart, he was sidelined, he was a laughing stock amongst those he respected, but he disobeyed orders because to do what was right and that won him the respect.

Walker was a high school Jock, he didn't have to overcome what Steve had to, he didn't have to fight for respect, he was given it on a plate. Now sure he was a good soldier in his career, he won medals of honor, he followed orders, he had guts, but that's not enough. He threw himself on a grenade, but he had a special reinforced helmet, that's not the same thing at all.

It's entirely possible that Walker has an ego (from never having being not-accepted), and that he follows orders rather than doing what he thinks is right.
 
It kinda amazes me how many people don't get what made Steve Captain America wasn't serum but who he was as a person. I mean 'First Avenger' wasn't exactly subtle about it. Hell it wasn't even in the subtext; it was text!

I'm really hoping we get a flashback (or even a spin-off) of Isaiah in his prime. If there was anything that could get Tommy Lee Jones back, it'd be this...
I wonder if old man Steve Rogers knew about Bradley from meeting him in his alternative timeline. Maybe one of the reasons he gave Wilson the Shield was in part because he realized what happened to Bradley made it important for his successor to be a black American. Jason
Steve doesn't think like that. He gave it to Sam because he felt Sam was worthy of it, not because of the colour of his skin.
Also, if Steve had known about Isaiah (which he didn't, because he was on ice at the time) he sure as hell wouldn't have been quiet about it; he'd have been furious.
 
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Possible, if they wanted an excuse to hide behind. But the underlying message appears to be that white heroes get celebration tours, dance numbers and nationwide propaganda rollouts, while black heroes get buried or politely asked to return that trinket of significant historical value.

Now, I don't think the excuse that was used to put Bradley on the shelf ultimately matters, so much as that they did it. But considering the fact that he was basically erased from the history books, such that only Bucky and HYDRA seem to remember him, I'm willing to go out on a limb and speculate that either he didn't have a long and visible heroic career prior to whatever happened, or everybody who knew he existed was silenced through fear or death. I feel like if they had an excuse to expose him as a failure, or as trouble, they would have discredited him rather than erased him.

I'm not saying he just had the one mission. Nothing in the evidence says it was that limited. But people remembered Steve Rogers 70 years after the fact. Bradley was scrubbed to the point that it doesn't even appear that he was a kind of myth or fairy tale like the Winter Soldier. You can't tell me that somewhere in the African America community someone wouldn't be telling that story if someone knew it. The MCU could prove me wrong later, and I'll gladly say so when they do, but I definitely think we're supposed to interpret Bradley's dialogue as though he was just getting started when he was locked up.
But the evidence with respect to SHIELD and 'early' superheroes was that they were all top secret. In the first Ant-Man film remember that Hank Pym's and Janet Pym's actions from their start in the '70s to their last mission in the late '80s, no one knew about the technology or their activities and they both took great pains to keep it that way.

My point is that aspect Bradley's history may not have been unique in that era. Hell remember that even the Winter Soldier himself was considered a myth by the majority of the worldwide intelligence community in those days. Yes he definitely operated, but even those in charge of various intelligence resources didn't believe he was a real entity, and was more a piece of propaganda.
 
Today in Canada:
Y8yH7DR

https://twitter.com/KastnerLam/status/1376614840106684425?s=19
Too. Damn. True.
 
And MCU SHIELD definitely tried to squash all such reports. They wanted it believed that Cap and the Skull were anomalies in history.
 
But the evidence with respect to SHIELD and 'early' superheroes was that they were all top secret. In the first Ant-Man film remember that Hank Pym's and Janet Pym's actions from their start in the '70s to their last mission in the late '80s, no one knew about the technology or their activities and they both took great pains to keep it that way.

My point is that aspect Bradley's history may not have been unique in that era. Hell remember that even the Winter Soldier himself was considered a myth by the majority of the worldwide intelligence community in those days. Yes he definitely operated, but even those in charge of various intelligence resources didn't believe he was a real entity, and was more a piece of propaganda.

True, in regards to the period and SHIELD. But you undermine your own argument by bringing up the Winter Soldier. The Soldier was at least a myth. A possibly unreal spy boogeyman born from stories trying to make sense of a super soldier in a world where such things didn't happen. But Bradley isn't even that. That's more than just being classified, that's being erased. And it's really hard to erase things that have a huge impact in the world. Too many people see, and not all of them will play ball with your cover up all the time. Conspiracies are leaky things, and the more people who touch them the more likely they are to flood.

Look at the context of the set up. On the walk up to Bradley's house, Sam meets the "Black Kid" for a funny, but timely conversation. And partly it shows how approachable Sam is, how involved he still is in communities and how willing he is to be a normal guy with people. But, more than that, that kid picked him out on sight, on a street in a city that Sam doesn't live in. Ok, so Sam is famous. But their conversation begins with the kid talking about he and his dad talk about Sam. Sam is a hero in their community. Not just an Avenger, but a hero. He is someone who looks like them, doing amazing things in public and being an icon OF THEIR COMMUNITY. They talk about him around their dinner tables, they follow his exploits

You're telling me that Isaiah Bradley was an active super soldier hero for any length of time, and he ISN'T being whispered about in African American communities? In churches? On street corners? Isn't being held up as an example of what they can be, or how they could be treated by the system? Ok, sure, you'll say. Classified, super top secret need to know. But somebody worked with him, supported him. Saw him in action. Somebody knows he exists, and will get drunk and tell a fanciful story about the ridiculously capable dude who beat up a possibly Soviet legend in Korea that one time years ago.

My point being, if the Winter Soldier was present enough to be a boogeyman despite virtually everyone who encountered him being dead, why isn't Bradley also talked about as a myth or story? Sure, maybe not by name, but by rep? If they'd had Sam say he'd once heard stories about a black super hero from some old Vets when he was a kid, or that some old guys on a base one time had started talking about this ridiculous story of a superhuman guy from the old days that nobody talked about or whatever, that's one thing. Especially Sam, who being a very public Avenger would have been approached by people in the community with some of their tall tales if they were out there. Just like the kid on the street and "Black Falcon", somebody would have brought him up at some point. But Sam has never heard of this guy, not even a whisper. Isaiah Bradley has been buried so deep that the community most likely to keep his story his alive doesn't even know he exists.

Until we get more evidence, that, at least to me, points to a fairly limited career. Not by his choice, certainly. This was done to him, not by or for him. You can't bury something that a lot of people know about without a lot of bodies, and even trails of bodies lead to stories, as the Winter Soldier proves.
 
You can't apply real world "conspiracies leak" logic to the MCU.

The MCU is full of decades long conspiracies involving thousands (if not tens of thousands) of people that never leaked. Hell, millenia and millions if you include Wakanda itself.

I suspect Disney+ will be announcing a limited series (with potential for multiple seasons) following Isaiah at the end of the season, like how they announced multiple Star Wars shows at the end of The Mandalorian.
 
...Look at the context of the set up. On the walk up to Bradley's house, Sam meets the "Black Kid" for a funny, but timely conversation. And partly it shows how approachable Sam is, how involved he still is in communities and how willing he is to be a normal guy with people. But, more than that, that kid picked him out on sight, on a street in a city that Sam doesn't live in. Ok, so Sam is famous. But their conversation begins with the kid talking about he and his dad talk about Sam. Sam is a hero in their community. Not just an Avenger, but a hero. He is someone who looks like them, doing amazing things in public and being an icon OF THEIR COMMUNITY. They talk about him around their dinner tables, they follow his exploits

You're telling me that Isaiah Bradley was an active super soldier hero for any length of time, and he ISN'T being whispered about in African American communities? In churches? On street corners? Isn't being held up as an example of what they can be, or how they could be treated by the system? Ok, sure, you'll say. Classified, super top secret need to know. But somebody worked with him, supported him. Saw him in action. Somebody knows he exists, and will get drunk and tell a fanciful story about the ridiculously capable dude who beat up a possibly Soviet legend in Korea that one time years ago...
I think this is especially true when compared to the Luke Cage series that showed exactly the community reaction you are describing. Damn right Bradley was cancelled and erased.

Bulletproof always gonna come second to being Black
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You can't apply real world "conspiracies leak" logic to the MCU.

The MCU is full of decades long conspiracies involving thousands (if not tens of thousands) of people that never leaked. Hell, millenia and millions if you include Wakanda itself.

I suspect Disney+ will be announcing a limited series (with potential for multiple seasons) following Isaiah at the end of the season, like how they announced multiple Star Wars shows at the end of The Mandalorian.

I'm not sure if it will be his own series/mini-series type thing, but it would make an interesting flashback. Perhaps to bookend/couple with Eli gaining powers as Isaiah tries to talk him out of trusting the government/organizations and talks about what he went through.
 
I suspect Disney+ will be announcing a limited series (with potential for multiple seasons) following Isaiah at the end of the season, like how they announced multiple Star Wars shows at the end of The Mandalorian.
I wouldn't be surprised by that, especially considering Carl Lumbly's casting.
 
Steve doesn't think like that. He gave it to Sam because he felt Sam was worthy of it, not because of the colour of his skin.
Also, if Steve had known about Isaiah (which he didn't, because he was on ice at the time) he sure as hell wouldn't have been quiet about it; he'd have been furious.

Also, I maintain Steve wasn't in an "alternate timeline".
 
Also, I maintain Steve wasn't in an "alternate timeline".
And you'd be wrong. Literally that whole movie is based around the concept that if you travel back in time, it's NEVER your past you arrive in because it's quantumphysically impossible to do so, since the very act of being there makes it an alternate timeline. The movie was very specific about this and had at least two or three whole scenes that were just about explaining this concept.
 
And you'd be wrong. Literally that whole movie is based around the concept that if you travel back in time, it's NEVER your past you arrive in because it's quantumphysically impossible to do so, since the very act of being there makes it an alternate timeline. The movie was very specific about this and had at least two or three whole scenes that were just about explaining this concept.

Nope. It has multiple scenes explaining that you can never change your past by traveling through time and then goes on to repeatedly contradict itself about *why* that is. There is no fully consistant interpretation of the 'rules' of time travel in Endgame possible without inventing some extra fictional justification to fix the weird exceptions in one direction or the other, so it's ridiculous to claim that someone preferring that fictional justification to go one way rather the other is indisputably wrong.
 
Nope. It has multiple scenes explaining that you can never change your past by traveling through time and then goes on to repeatedly contradict itself about *why* that is. There is no fully consistant interpretation of the 'rules' of time travel in Endgame possible without inventing some extra fictional justification to fix the weird exceptions in one direction or the other, so it's ridiculous to claim that someone preferring that fictional justification to go one way rather the other is indisputably wrong.
Existing in your past by definition changes it. Just one particle interaction is enough to collapse a quantum waveform. A whole person's worth of particle interactions? You'd be lucky to go one zeptosecond before a photon, or a stray electron interacts with one of the trillions of particles that make up *you*. Altering the timeline is a misnomer; it's about interacting with the universe on the quantum scale. Time itself in an illusion and you can't alter something that always exists, you can only navigate though it's near infinite paths of probobility. It's not about betting on sports events or talking to your parents.

If that Steve had been there the whole time and never travelled "back", then either 1) it wasn't their Steve; it was a Steve from another alternate timeline, in a plurality of Steves that go back in time and shack up with Peggy in other universes, like 4th dimensional fractal hermit crabs. Or 2) it was our Steve, but wasn't our Bruce, Bucky, or Sam. QED.
 
Existing in your past by definition changes it. Just one particle interaction is enough to collapse a quantum waveform. A whole person's worth of particle interactions? You'd be lucky to go one zeptosecond before a photon, or a stray electron interacts with one of the trillions of particles that make up *you*. Altering the timeline is a misnomer; it's about interacting with the universe on the quantum scale. Time itself in an illusion and you can't alter something that always exists, you can only navigate though it's near infinite paths of probobility. It's not about betting on sports events or talking to your parents.

If that Steve had been there the whole time and never travelled "back", then either 1) it wasn't their Steve; it was a Steve from another alternate timeline, in a plurality of Steves that go back in time and shack up with Peggy in other universes, like 4th dimensional fractal hermit crabs. Or 2) it was our Steve, but wasn't our Bruce, Bucky, or Sam. QED.

None of that is in the movie.
 
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