Spoilers WandaVision discussion thread

[wayoung]

She didn't self exile as punishment for her actions. Hell, the last thing said to her was that the people of Westview, that she kidnapped, abused, and tortured, would never know what SHE gave up for THEM.

She went to be alone to process her grief in a healthier way and learn who and what she truly is from the book.

She ends being emotionally healthy with even more powers than before and Rambeaux, Darcy, and the FBI treating her as a hero for her actions.

That's not a "punishment". It's a reward.

 

[kirk55555]

So, the show ended pretty well. I'm glad that Wanda has gone full "Scarlet Witch", more actual costumes in the MCU is always cool. I liked her fight with agatha, learning on the fly and using the runes that Agatha taunted her with to beat Agatha in the end. I also like that we could very definitely see Agatha again, I liked her enough to not want to see her die.

The new Vision is interesting. he has the memories, and maybe some of the personality, but presumably doesn't feel a huge connection to the information, at least right now (stuff like this has happened in the comics to him before). I'm curious to see where he pops up next in the MCU, I'm glad he's back in some way.

The post credits scenes were interesting. I'm assuming we'll see Monica in Captain Marvel 2, or maybe even Secret Invasion (if that comes out first). Wanda in the cabin hearing her kids voices was interesting. I'm assuming that a Young Avengers like project is planned, so I was assuming that this wasn't the end of Billy and Tommy. Maybe part of her story in Dr. Strange 2 will involve her going out of control trying to find/recreate her kids.

Overall, I liked the show a lot. The first two episodes were pretty rancid, and it should have dropped the sitcom stuff earlier, but when it was good it was very good, and I definitely care more about Wanda and Vision now then I did before.

 

[Jax]

Agatha was the real hero here, even if her motives were selfish - which I'm not entirely convinced they are. She genuinely believes Wanda will destroy the world.

Agatha would of used the power to dominate the world most likely so she's no ally. Wanda needs a teacher or to be more specific she needs a Doctor

 

[Orphalesion]

Well, that was cool. And emotional, though even as the red wave was approaching, I knew they weren't gonna erase the kids. Just like in the comics (where they were part of Mephisto, which he reabsorbed, but somehow they cam back as super-powered teenagers) they will be back, somehow, probably in the Doctor Strange movie.

I'm impressed that they pretty much resolved everything. The only thread that's still dangling is what happened to the beekeeper guy, now that we know he wasn't Fietro.

With Monica...are we getting a Captain Marvel II?

And yesss, cool new costume for Wanda!

I thought Wanda did very well in accepting responsibility in the end, she fully accepted that the people of Westview wouldn't forgive her, and owned up to what she did. And yeah Monica's words about bringing back dead loved ones do ring true.
And it looks like she self-isolates in the Sokovian mountains to figure out who and what she is as the Scarlet Witch, probably where Doctor Strange will find her, or maybe she'll approach him about rescuing the twins.

The showdown between Wanda/Agatha and Vision/WhiteVision was also pretty epic. For a while I was expecting the two visions to merge or something, but Fake!Vision did unlock White!Visions memories, so his old persona could be back?

As a whole, this was a very enjoyable show. Sad to see it end.

 

[The Nth Doctor]

Honestly, I think it's a little premature to say one way or the other. The smile could just be about getting to go back into space, or because the "old friend" isn't Carol or Nick, but Talos's daughter.

Perhaps so, but like I said in my subsequent post, it feels more likely that it's Carol since she was the one who had been previously referenced in the show.

I think it's a safe bet that Strange is a little busy right now. I mean remember what The Ancient One told Bruce about a world without the time stone to help defend it? The transdimensional nasties much be swarming out of the woodwork. Indeed, that may be how Wanda gets involved; they flat out said the Scarlett Witch surpasses the Sorcerer Supreme, so who better to recruit?

That makes sense. I had forgotten about what The Ancient One had said so that works as an excuse for his absence. And you're probably right about how Wanda becomes involved in The Mutliverse of Madness.

The only thread that's still dangling is what happened to the beekeeper guy, now that we know he wasn't Fietro.

Since he was never mentioned again by anyone, it seems clear to me that he was literally rewound out of existence. He never happened.

With Monica...are we getting a Captain Marvel II?

Yup, Teyonah Parris is already confirmed for the second Captain Marvel film.

For a while I was expecting the two visions to merge or something, but Fake!Vision did unlock White!Visions memories, so his old persona could be back?

No, I don't think he'll be a straight revival of the old Vision. Instead White Vision will be a mixture of the two Visions.

 

[wayoung]

Agatha would of used the power to dominate the world most likely so she's no ally.

Says who? That was never said in the show.

Agatha wanted Wanda's powers for selfish reasons, which are never explores beyond "I take people's powers who don't know how to use them. It's what I do" but that's not her primary concern. When she's losing, she isn't crying about not having her powers - she's crying that Wanda doesn't know what she is doing and will destroy the world.

Agatha entered the hex to find out who had such powerful magic. When she found out it was the Scarlett Witch her concern was stopping her before she could destroy the world. That she would stop Wanda by stealing Wanda's powers to make herself more powerful was the icing on the cake for her.

Agatha strikes me as an anti hero.

Flip the show so it focuses on Agatha and not Wanda, and you have a lone selfish powerful being encountering an angry supervillain who captured, brainwashed, and tortured and entire town into obeying her every whim and who is destined to destroy the world. Agatha, our anti hero, figures it out just in time - and sees that in stopping the super villain she herself would become more powerful and leaps at the chance.

Except Agatha loses and the super villain levels up instead, running off to learn about her increased powers, leaving thousands of tortured and traumatized victims in her wake, with no closure, no recourse, having to watch people celebrate their torturer as a hero.

 

[LaxScrutiny]

I don't really get how some think the kids need to be "rescued". They are home in the world they grew up in, the only world they know, with the only father they know.

I have no doubt they are there living happy lives. That world exists somewhere, because Agatha is imprisoned in it. When Wanda said she would see them again, that could have been the nice thing you say, knowing you never will, but for some reason I believe it. That world is "anchored" to hold Agatha, so she can always go back.

That makes sense. I had forgotten about what The Ancient One had said so that works as an excuse for his absence. And you're probably right about how Wanda becomes involved in The Mutliverse of Madness.

The universe was split into threads when each stone was taken. Those threads ceased to be when the stones were returned a moment later. That someone popped in and out for a split second is the new history in the future. The Ancient One and Banner were pretty clear about that. It was a clever explanation for no time paradox.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Marvel fucked that up.

Returning the stone would have created a new unfucked timeline.

But there still would have been two timelines, one where the stone wasn't taken, and another where the stone was taken, but not returned.

Their whole time travel theory is based on the notion that you can't return to the past. All time travel always creates a new timeline. So it's not really time travel at all. It's just travel.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

Since he was never mentioned again by anyone, it seems clear to me that he was literally rewound out of existence. He never happened.

That's obviously not true since the materials he used were still there on the outside, so he did go in. And since he did go in and get cut off they obviously would've mentioned/shown it if he came back out again by some means. The only logical answer is that Wanda rewound him back into the sewer and kept him out of sight for the rest of the show (since even from the very beginning she was instinctively trying to not kill anyone), which would mean he was released at the end just like everyone else.

I don't really get how some think the kids need to be "rescued". They are home in the world they grew up in, the only world they know, with the only father they know.

I have no doubt they are there living happy lives. That world exists somewhere, because Agatha is imprisoned in it. When Wanda said she would see them again, that could have been the nice thing you say, knowing you never will, but for some reason I believe it. That world is "anchored" to hold Agatha, so she can always go back.The universe was split into threads when each stone was taken. Those threads ceased to be when the stones were returned a moment later. That someone popped in and out for a split second is the new history in the future. The Ancient One and Banner were pretty clear about that. It was a clever explanation for no time paradox.

No. The episode was extremely clear that that entire world was ceasing to exist (although the end credits sequence suggests that that doesn't necessarily mean the kids are dead and gone, but I never expected them to be permanently gone). Agatha was trapped inside 'Agnes', not inside a fake world.

 

[KennyB]

Overall I enjoyed the show.......I just hope the other Marvel shows don't follow the pattern of "do whatever you want........BUT at the end of 8 episodes 95% of what you did has to be reset but the end of the season".

 

[Grendelsbayne]

Says who? That was never said in the show.

Agatha wanted Wanda's powers for selfish reasons, which are never explores beyond "I take people's powers who don't know how to use them. It's what I do" but that's not her primary concern. When she's losing, she isn't crying about not having her powers - she's crying that Wanda doesn't know what she is doing and will destroy the world.

Agatha entered the hex to find out who had such powerful magic. When she found out it was the Scarlett Witch her concern was stopping her before she could destroy the world. That she would stop Wanda by stealing Wanda's powers to make herself more powerful was the icing on the cake for her.

Agatha strikes me as an anti hero.

Flip the show so it focuses on Agatha and not Wanda, and you have a lone selfish powerful being encountering an angry supervillain who captured, brainwashed, and tortured and entire town into obeying her every whim and who is destined to destroy the world. Agatha, our anti hero, figures it out just in time - and sees that in stopping the super villain she herself would become more powerful and leaps at the chance.

Except Agatha loses and the super villain levels up instead, running off to learn about her increased powers, leaving thousands of tortured and traumatized victims in her wake, with no closure, no recourse, having to watch people celebrate their torturer as a hero.

I agree Agatha clearly comes across as an anti-hero to me and I fully expect to see someone going back to get her help with something if not in Multiverse of Madness then in some other future magic related project, probably involving Wanda.

I also think it's fair to say to a certain extent that Wanda was a villain here. Certainly from the pov of the townspeople, although I wonder to what extent they would really all blame her for everything since they explicitly mentioned that the townspeople experienced Wanda's nightmares so they apparently felt exactly what she was going through. And I found it an arguable choice for Monica to not even suggest to Wanda that she should stay and submit to some legal ramifications. But at the end of the day, no one could possibly force her to do anything and antagonizing her is obviously a bad strategic move.

Beyond that, though, I can't agree with your analysis. When Agatha arrived, Wanda wasn't a supervillain at all, she was a powerful person who had done something she didn't understand completely by accident. And Agatha's 'solution' to the problem of a Scarlet Witch being too powerful to exist was to take all of Wanda's power for herself, making herself even more powerful than Wanda was which would make her even more dangerous than Wanda. And Agatha herself also forced people to be her puppets just like Wanda did. Most significantly, I don't think it's at all accurate to say the townspeople were forced to watch people celebrate Wanda as a hero. The only person who spoke to her before she left was Monica and she never called her a hero, let alone publicly celebrated her for all the townspeople to see. All she said was she understood and had sympathy for Wanda's situation, not that she thought Wanda did the right thing.

At the end of the day, I think both Wanda and Agatha are at best anti-heroes here, Wanda is just a much more sympathetic one and the only one who openly chooses to change her ways and try to be better. But that end-credits sequence also immediately calls into question whether she might actually go the other way in the end and become the full-on villain in Dr. Strange 2.

 

[The Nth Doctor]

The universe was split into threads when each stone was taken. Those threads ceased to be when the stones were returned a moment later. That someone popped in and out for a split second is the new history in the future. The Ancient One and Banner were pretty clear about that. It was a clever explanation for no time paradox.

That's true for the Infinity Stones the Avengers took out of time, but Thanos also destroyed them five years prior to Endgame. While they probably weren't completely destroyed and continue to exist in some scattered, distant form, I imagine that new existence has caused some troubles for the universe.

That's obviously not true since the materials he used were still there on the outside, so he did go in. And since he did go in and get cut off they obviously would've mentioned/shown it if he came back out again by some means. The only logical answer is that Wanda rewound him back into the sewer and kept him out of sight for the rest of the show (since even from the very beginning she was instinctively trying to not kill anyone), which would mean he was released at the end just like everyone else.

Hm, that's true. The more I thought about it, I did realize that Wanda has, as you said, been clear about not killing anyone. I just read the rewinding a bit differently as in the cable was back to its original position, albeit changed, and agents didn't know what happened from the get go. I see now that I overcomplicated it with my initial assumption and stuck to it.

No. The episode was extremely clear that that entire world was ceasing to exist (although the end credits sequence suggests that that doesn't necessarily mean the kids are dead and gone, which I didn't expect to be the case). Agatha was trapped inside 'Agnes', not inside a fake world.

Yup, the only remaining magic in Westview is Agatha's isolated imprisonment.

As for the twins, I'm guessing their existences have some kind of form because of the Mind Stone and their essences are in some kind of limbo now. Much in the same way the colored Vision imparted an essence of the piece of the Mind Stone in Wanda onto the White Vision (assuming I'm reading that scene correctly and I hope I am).

 

[wayoung]

No. The episode was extremely clear that that entire world was ceasing to exist (although the end credits sequence suggests that that doesn't necessarily mean the kids are dead and gone, which I didn't expect to be the case). Agatha was trapped inside 'Agnes', not inside a fake world.

Yeah, my understanding is also that the tv world ceased to exist, and the kids Wanda heard post credits were her children from another universe as she learned her powers, hence the supposed tie in to Multiverse of Madness

 

[The Nth Doctor]

A few things I forgot to mention in my review that I wanted to mention:

I loved the double reference to The Wizard of Oz, first the visual of Agatha's boots underneath the car inside her smashed house and then later on the theater marquee advertised Oz the Great and Wonderful, which came out in 2013 and fits in with the most recent sitcom world.

In the end, the commercials were only amusing asides that related to Wanda's and Vision's pasts and had no greater connection to the storyline.

Maybe this is a case of me experiencing pareidolia, but when we see a close up of Wanda in her full Scarlet Witch regalia, I swear the center part of her headpiece looks like Magneto's helmet.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

In the end, the commercials were only amusing asides that related to Wanda's and Vision's pasts and had no greater connection to the storyline.

I wouldn't say that. It was telling the story of Wanda's life in direct order, starting from her origin story staring at Stark's unexploded bomb all the way up to Agatha trying to steal her magic ('Snack on Yo Magic!') which leads to her fully powering up (to become a 'nexus' being). So at the start of the show, it was to some extent recap of her life (which would later be expanded on with episode 8) and then it later became foreshadowing of what would happen in the finale.

 

[Jayson1]

I would like Agatha to eventually get he3 own Disneyplus show. Jason

 

[ITDUDE]

That's true for the Infinity Stones the Avengers took out of time, but Thanos also destroyed them five years prior to Endgame. While they probably weren't completely destroyed and continue to exist in some scattered, distant form, I imagine that new existence has caused some troubles for the universe.

What am I missing? The current MCU, post-Endgame timeline we're all watching is the timeline that doesn't have any Infinity Stones. The Universe survived for 5 years without the Infinity Stones just fine (hell, even whales returned to the Hudson). The Stones that Hulk and Iron-Man snapped with, were returned to their original universe's just fine and those universes ceased to exist and/or merged with the one we're currently watching (except the one branch that still remains in which Loki stole the Tesseract, I think. It's quiet a mess that TVA has to clean up)
All this to say, that the Ancient One was full of crap. Not only did we not have the stones for 5 years, we also didn't have the Sorcerer Supreme (but I suppose a new one could have been promoted, but still without the Time Stone) to defend the Earth and nothing bad happened.

 

[Relayer1]

I don't really get how some think the kids need to be "rescued". They are home in the world they grew up in, the only world they know, with the only father they know.

They discorporated along with the Vision Wanda created.

 

[Richard Baker]

I liked how when, during the final battle, Wanda was shooting red energy and would occasionally seem to miss. No, those missed shots were planned as that was how she put the runes up...

 

[StarMan]

Edit: letdown is too strong a word. Perhaps I'm letdown that the series is over.

I'm interested in where this is heading (What do they have in store for The Scarlett Witch? What has Wanda unleashed? Vision... ), but, something felt off. This didn't "feel" like a finale to the series I've just watched over the past several weeks. It was too much your standard OTT VFX-laden Marvel fist fight. I normally enjoy that. But here, it just felt ... off (as well as rushed).

Expected something a bit more engaging upstairs (although I loved the Hex Vision / White Vision library scene. Anyone else think of Kirk? At least Vision didn't make White Vision self destruct). Felt like a lot of nuance fell thru the cracks to accommodate epicness - Agatha ended up being disappointingly cartoonish.

All that said, I did kind of enjoy it. Perhaps if this had been a season finale rather then the series finale (literally!) I would have found it more satisfying.

Also, Pietro... Come on. There's got to be more to this then meets the eye. Otherwise, I'm not impressed with your clever little subvert expectations troll, dicks.

Rewatching in the next couple of days so opinion subject to change as always. Overall, a fantastic series and vastly superior to anything CBS or the BBC have conjured up in the sci fi department in recent times. All hail Disney.

I liked how when, during the final battle, Wanda was shooting red energy and eould occasionally seem to miss. No, those missed shots were planned as that was how she put the runes up...

I must have missed something but when did she learn to cast runes?