Yes indeed.
MemoryAlpha editor refuses to change Adira's Gender to "Non-Binary"
- Thread starter nafeasonto
- Start date
They removed gender the template (for all characters/actors/staff not just Adira) and have moved it to the opening paragraph of the article.
"Adira Tal was a non-binary Human who lived on the planet Earth during the late 32nd century. Adira preferred to be addressed by the pronouns "they" or "them"."
This makes it consistent with other character pages on the wiki.
https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Paul_Stamets
"Lieutenant Commander Paul Stamets was a male Human astromycologist and Starfleet officer who lived during the mid-23rd century"
"Adira Tal was a non-binary Human who lived on the planet Earth during the late 32nd century. Adira preferred to be addressed by the pronouns "they" or "them"."
This makes it consistent with other character pages on the wiki.
https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Paul_Stamets
"Lieutenant Commander Paul Stamets was a male Human astromycologist and Starfleet officer who lived during the mid-23rd century"
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Excellent, as it should be.
OOf
https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Forum:Proposal:_Gender_on_Memory_Alpha
The current M-A policy hasn't changed, yet. They only include gender in the opening paragraph if it's important to the character (like Adira) or has been out right said out loud, or mentioned on a screen.
https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Forum:Proposal:_Gender_on_Memory_Alpha
The current M-A policy hasn't changed, yet. They only include gender in the opening paragraph if it's important to the character (like Adira) or has been out right said out loud, or mentioned on a screen.
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Is Memory Alpha trying to make themselves look like a bunch of dumbasses? Because reading that above Proposal, I can't think of any other reason to take that seriously unless the person proposing it actually genuinely wants to be thought of as a dumbass.
Memory Alpha is a Wikipedia for a franchise that mostly takes place in the 24th Century. They should be thinking, "How would we look to people in the actual 24th Century?"
There are a couple new good (IMO) replies on that page now.
Sulfur is suggesting a change to the spoiler policy that makes pronouns exempt from it.
For a retroactive example, Adira's article would have used they/them the moment they appeared in the show, even before that came up in dialogue, since it was announced by the writers/actors that it was going to happen.
This would apply to all future characters in the franchise. No assumption on gender allowed.
Until a gender is established by the show, or by writers/actors, the policy would be to use neutral pronouns.
AnotherOddity also posted something, but it's a wall of text I really can't summarize, it's better to read.
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How could they possibly predict that?
I'll spell it out for you: They'll look really backwards-thinking.
That's the point I was making... and frankly I think you know that. Don't pretend like you didn't know what I was getting at.
I'm just getting tired at this point. After going back-and-forth with Renegade54 in talk pages for over a month, only for Sulfur without ANY discussion or mention of it in the talk pages, just makes lose any trust and assumptions of good faith on the part of these Admins.
To be fair, I did the exact same thing when I reverted the change last month and restored Adira's gender in the sidebar. Sometimes you have to step in and do what you think is right if you see a clear wrong.
That doesn't make Sulfur right. I remember when Memory Alpha didn't really use sidebars hardly at all, outside the main characters (although Adira is practically a main character, at this point), but since the community adapted sidebars, I don't see an issue with having gender in the sidebar. More info is better than less info.
But... my main issue was the clear signs of gender erasure, on the side of some admins and other users. Sulfur seems to have mitigated that criticism by including Adira's gender prominently in the lede paragraph. Memory Alpha is heavy on standardization these days, and I think that's Sulfur's main issue with the sidebar descriptions. It's a valid point. I'm more of a "Let sidebars form organically" kind of guy. Two different approaches.
The way it's outlined in the proposal just makes them look like they're being canon literalists with no room for free thinking or Occam's Razor. "We can call Jonathan Archer a male because he was identified as male in episode #X.X in this particular line of dialogue. We can not call Vilix'pran a male because though referred to as 'he' he was never specified as male."
Was it really asking too much of them to simply acknowledge Adira as non-binary, as they were clearly intended to be? If MA had just accepted that and moved on, all would be good. Instead they have to pretend to be the Star Trek equivalent of a Bible Thumper always needing to cite Chapter and Verse or else it doesn't count. Because they didn't actually state on screen the words "Adira is non-binary" so MA had to make a mountain of a molehill and try to say it's unacceptable to think of Adira as non-binary as a result. But when everyone else rightfully called MA out as being bigots because of this, they now are splitting hairs about who actually is canonically and specifically stated to be a particular gender in On Screen dialogue.
Something that occurred to me recently, what about characters who are named in the script but that name doesn't get mentioned in onscreen dialogue? Why does MA accept their names instead listing them in the unnamed character section? After all, by MA's supposedly strict canon adherence policy, those characters don't have canonical names. So why is MA using those names?
The separate characters wouldn't have their own pages, they'd be listed on the already existing unnamed character pages.
If they can make the exceptions for character names and ship classes that aren't mentioned in dialogue, why can't they acknowledge genders that aren't specified?
They did. Adira had non-binary in their info box around the same time the episode aired. But then someone went on an edit war trying to add their biological sex next to it (labelling non-binary as psychological gender or something), an admin reverted to the wrong edit and locked the page. Then this whole thing started.
Yes, I'm aware of the history. Is there a reason MA can't just stick to their guns and leave the info box with the non binary listing that was there to begin with rather than allowing the matter to explode to the point it has where they won't accept a spade is a spade unless it was canonically specified in an episode's dialogue to be a spade?
Just because some bigoted asshole has a problem with non binary people doesn't mean the entire world has to bend to their will accordingly.
Talk page was archived again.
Newest post: here
Newest post: here
I can see it. The big issues for me is really how the whole "no genders in sidebars" thing came to be, Like had it been formed out a discussion, rather than taking effect because the mods were throwing fit at ppl who wanted Nonbinary in Adira's sidebar, I would've probably be cool with it.
This shit is so tiring.