The Starfleet Command Emblem

[Commodore Kirk]

I'm a bit new, so I don't exactly know if this is the best place to put this question. However I didn't see any dedicated forums to costuming or props, so why not? Right?

I've really been wanting to replicate the old Starfleet Command emblem from TOS. The flower-y looking one. So far I've tracked down a pretty well-done replica from Exscapesprops, but I figured I would instead take a crack at painting over a vintage brooch Theiss and company might've used for the series.

I've found one or two flower brooches online that about equal the right measurements (2.2 ish inches), and I'm about to place my order. Though I'm not sure what color to paint them!

Based on HD screenshots from the remastered version of the series I can't help but see these brooches as any other color than silver. However the Exscapesprops version of the brooch is accented silver with gold gold, and so are many of the recreations used for various fanfilms like Star Trek New Voyages: Phase II and Star Trek: Axanar. Bjo Trimble's book, Star Trek Concordance, claims the Starfleet Command emblem was gold too.

Does anyone know if this is true, or have any evidence for it? Screenshots, auction pictures, eye-witness testimony, etc? I'd really appreciate it!

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PS:

I said before that the Starfleet Command emblem was around 2.2 inches in diameter. I based on some pixel measurements of what I thought was an authentic Starfleet Command emblem next to authentic USS Exeter patches, but I guess it's possible that I measured wrong or that I was really looking at a cadet's emblem.

I've even seem some people say its even bigger than I measured! Furthermore, I feel like the emblems worn by Miss Piper and Lieutenant Shaw are actually bigger than any of the emblems worn by other commodores, but maybe my eyes are tricking me. Are my measurements correct?

 

[Maurice]

Try this image (link).

As to color, they appear to be large and gold as worn by Starbase personnel (link) and small and silver for cadets (link). (Sometimes Twitter points to the top of the thread so my apologies if the right tweets don't come up centered.)

You might try searching on therpf.com (Replica Prop Forum) to see what anyone else might've used.

 

[Commodore Kirk]

Thanks Maurice,

I guess I can see just a little difference between the color of the cadet's and Starfleet Command emblems, though it's pretty subtle. I guess a lot of reflective gold surfaces sort of showed up as silver on camera, too.

Still, with these images, it seems like the entire emblem is washed in the same color. The various replicas I've seen use both silver and gold.

I'll definitely check the therpf.com! I've not heard of it before, so it's definitely worth a look.

 

[ThrorII]

Yeah, I've always seen the Starbase personnel insignia as gold, while the cadet insignia is half as wide, and silver. Also, just note, this is not a "Star fleet Command" Insignia necessarily. There seemed to be insignia for "Starbase Personnel" (the Floral design), "Star Fleet Personnel" (the Enterprise arrowhead), "Outpost Personnel" (a comet design seen in Balance of Terror and Arena), "Starfleet Cadet Personnel" (the mini-floral design in silver), and "Merchant Marine or Auxillery Fleet Personnel" (a painter's palette insignia seen in Charlie X). There was never a "Starfleet Command" insignia shown, although the Starbase insignia could have been the same.

Some people also believe that Decker's insignia in Doomsday Machine was a 'Fleet Commander' insignia, not the Constellation's insignia.

 

[ZapBrannigan]

It's been noted in the past that the ten-petal flower insignia worn by Commodores Stone and Mendez...
http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/1x11hd/themenageriepart1hd015.jpg

was in fact a common filigree flower bead found in any sewing shop
https://www.trekbbs.com/threads/starfleet-command-insignia.200788/

and yes, I do love learning things like this.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Some people also believe that Decker's insignia in Doomsday Machine was a 'Fleet Commander' insignia, not the Constellation's insignia.

Kind of an odd place to put that.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

"Outpost Personnel" (a comet design seen in Balance of Terror and Arena)

I think it could be a fish.

But comet certainly sounds better!

 

[Maurice]

[...]as in fact a common filigree flower bead found in any sewing shop
https://www.trekbbs.com/threads/starfleet-command-insignia.200788/

That points to a post which points to a dead link.

But here ya go...
30mm
35mm
45mm

I'm guessing 30mm for cadets and 45 for Mendez and co.

 

[fireproof78]

This group is a good costuming site resource. Here is a thread of someone else's efforts to make this uniform.

 

[Phaser Two]

This group is a good costuming site resource. Here is a thread of someone else's efforts to make this uniform.

That site is great - thanks for the link. I like the result the gent in that thread got.

 

[Commodore Kirk]

Wow, I guess I missed a bit! Sorry about that, I'll try to respond in depth to who I can.
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@ThrorII

Also, just note, this is not a "Star fleet Command" Insignia necessarily. There seemed to be insignia for "Starbase Personnel" (the Floral design), "Star Fleet Personnel" (the Enterprise arrowhead), "Outpost Personnel" (a comet design seen in Balance of Terror and Arena), "Starfleet Cadet Personnel" (the mini-floral design in silver), and "Merchant Marine or Auxillery Fleet Personnel" (a painter's palette insignia seen in Charlie X). There was never a "Starfleet Command" insignia shown, although the Starbase insignia could have been the same.

I suppose I might've jumped the gun in assuming any and all Starbase personnel counted as Starfleet Command. Thank you for such a thorough description of all these different insignia.

Some people also believe that Decker's insignia in Doomsday Machine was a 'Fleet Commander' insignia, not the Constellation's insignia.

I am familiar with this idea, but I'm not sure if I can fully back it. I suppose that's mainly because I'm not sure why or how that would be a different rank from Fleet Captain, but I guess that might be getting a bit off topic. Still, it's a topic I'm really interested in! Are there other threads on here covering Decker?
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@Maurice

Thank you giving me such a clear shot! It's much higher quality than the one I found from that same 2006 auction. Though I think I must disagree about the size of the filigree beads for cadets and Starbase personnel. I recently saw an image of the USS Exeter patches for auction and with details about its size.

The Exeter patches measure up at about 4 inches, so using that image you sent me I measured the Starbase personnel insignia to be about 2.2 or 2.3 inches. This actually seems to match up well with the Exscapeprops replica, a replica supposedly casted from one of the official props.
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@fireproof78

This group is a good costuming site resource. Here is a thread of someone else's efforts to make this uniform.

Thanks for the link! That's a really solid go at making the old uniform. Still, the insignia seems just a bit too small? I might be wrong, but I could've sworn it looked bigger on screen. It turns out James Cawley actually sent this guy his insignia, so it's probably safe to trust after all.
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Oh! I figured I should let everyone know that I can finally see the gold accents in the show. It took me a bit, and maybe my eyes are just bad, but I took a step back and I could finally see it. I'm not sure why in some shots it looks completely silver, but I guess it's just a trick of the light.

In my original post I also mentioned that I wasn't sure if the insignias worn by female officers were the same size as the males, but just yesterday I did see that they were in fact the same size. It's clearest in a shot from the first of part of "The Menagerie" where Commodore Mendez and his assistant Miss Piper are in the same frame.

 

[Commodore Kirk]

@Maurice
I was taking a glance at that second image you posted. Do you know if that's a Starbase personnel or a cadet's insignia? It's against silver fabric, so I assumed it was the cadet's emblem, but when I measured the length and put it against the QP card in the same shot it came out very close to "3". I assume the QP card's ruler is in inches, but it might not be.

 

[J.T.B.]

I assume the QP card's ruler is in inches, but it might not be.

Ten equal rule markings, those are millimeters.

 

[Maurice]

The 2nd image is the cadet tunic & insignia as seen in "Shore Leave" and on a b.g. player in the bar fight in "Tribbles".

And, yes, pretty sure those are mm on the QP card, so 30ish seems right for the cadet badge.

 

[Commodore Kirk]

@J.T.B.

Ten equal rule markings, those are millimeters.

Ah, so they are. I had a bit of trouble reading them, so thank you. That makes it a lot clearer.
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@Maurice

The 2nd image is the cadet tunic & insignia as seen in "Shore Leave" and on a b.g. player in the bar fight in "Tribbles".

Ah, perfect then! Yeah, me not knowing the units and the weird coloration around the petals really made me think it could be the Starbase emblem. That makes so much more sense.

As to the size, yeah, I was probably off there. 45mm is just shy of 2".

All good, I'm just being a bit pedantic. As someone kind of new to the whole prop thing, I'm finding it hard to get specific information about some of these less trekked corners of the fandom. Thank you again!

 

[Maurice]

Actually, I edited and deleted that bit about the 45mm but you hit reply before I saved it. I don't have an image where you can see the scale of the Exeter badge. But eyeballing screenshots it still looks to me like the emblem on Mendez's uniform appears to be about 45mm across, albeit they could make/have made larger sizes.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

The closest to canon we've had on the different insignias is from https://intl.startrek.com/article/starfleet-insignia-explained.

The key points are:

There are six Starfleet duty insignia used in TOS:

1. Starship Duty Insignia (Fleet personnel emblem) -- Arrowhead or "Delta".
   
2. Spacecraft Duty Insignia (Auxiliary Fleet/ Merchant Marine personnel emblem) -- Pretzel or Hoof (from "Charlie X")
   
3. Outpost Duty Insignia (Outpost and Colony personnel emblem) - Described as a "spiklet" ("Balance of Terror", "Arena")
   
4. Cadet Duty Insignia (Starfleet Academy student emblem) - Small "starflower" in pewter/silver.
   
5. Starbase Duty Insignia (Headquarters, Space stations, Drydocks, and Ground installation personnel emblem) - Large "starflower" in gold.
   
6. Fleet Command Insignia (Senior field commander personnel emblem) - "Petal" in gold, Specifically designates a "Flag Officer in Permanent Command of a Starship", or "US-style commodore".

This was arguably decanonised by first USS Defiant on ENT, and then the universal use of the "delta" for all personnel on DSC (Cornwell for instance would wear the "Starbase Duty Insignia" under the Justman memo).

 

[Commodore Kirk]

@Maurice

Actually, I edited and deleted that bit about the 45mm but you hit reply before I saved it. I don't have an image where you can see the scale of the Exeter badge. But eyeballing screenshots it still looks to me like the emblem on Mendez's uniform appears to be about 45mm across, albeit they could make/have made larger sizes.

Here are the images I used for reference -

If the measurements are correct, the Starbase Personnel insignia should be about 2.2 or 2.3 inches.

 

[Maurice]

2.2 inches would be ~55mm.

Also, keep in mind that it's possible Theiss may have employed different sizes of these things on different costumes. It's difficult to say with only a single extant example to measure.

 

[fireproof78]

Also, keep in mind that it's possible Theiss may have employed different sizes of these things on different costumes. It's difficult to say with only a single extant example to measure.

This is useful to remember. A lot of Star Trek props were worked up as needed and not with any specific parameters in mind. I think finding a hard and fast rule with a lot of Trek uniform in TOS would be a challenge.