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MemoryAlpha editor refuses to change Adira's Gender to "Non-Binary"

DonIago said:
I still haven't seen any evidence that this anything other than a poor word-choice used in ignorance of the fact that it was a slur.

Is it so terrible to assume good faith and believe that if they'd realized the term was a slur that they wouldn't have used it?
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How does that make it okay though? Transphobia as humor had been completely acceptable for decades, some shows are still doing it. Given how widely acceptable it was with the public at the time, it’s not hard to assume that was the point. It would probably get a pass now from many of the same people here.
 
krsplat said:
It's unjustified to attempt derogatory jokes by irrationally insulting people.

It's always disappointing to hear that from friends, family, or just a fictional character, especially when it's not anticipated. If people let bigotry concealed as comedy go unchecked, that discriminatory attitude will just spread to more people. The chance to eliminate such a discriminatory attitude requires a direct confrontation about it.

So, it's bad to call people "transgendered."

That is an insulting slur which can't be obscured by contextualizing it.
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I'm not seeing where we disagree here.

But I do see that in the post of yours that I responded to before, you were responding to someone whose posts... we'll say I tend to pass over. That's the phrasing we'll use. So I took the initial post of yours I responded to out of context.
 
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If it was a joke it would be wrong but if it's a mistake not knowing the word was
Offensive then it's just that, a mistake. I went back and watched the scene and it still doesn't feel like a joke to me. Spinner actually looks like he fumbled even saying the line which reminded me of what someone said about how in the script it was tran gendered aliens so it still feels like a futurism to me. Granted that does create something offensive in making it feel like othering but people back then didn't think about that stuff either. Jason
 
Jayson1 said:
If it was a joke it would be wrong but if it's a mistake not knowing the word was
Offensive then it's just that, a mistake. I went back and watched the scene and it still doesn't feel like a joke to me. Spinner actually looks like he fumbled even saying the line which reminded me of what someone said about how in the script it was tran gendered aliens so it still feels like a futurism to me. Granted that does create something offensive in making it feel like othering but people back then didn't think about that stuff either. Jason
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If someone made a racist joke using a slur would it be acceptable if they didn’t know it was racist to use that slur?

And if you’re going to use this bizarre explanation, what does tran gendered mean?
 
Well if someone doesn't know it's a slur then how can it be a slur from their pov. People only know what they know. As for Tran gendered that is a good question and maybe the reason Spiner changed the line. I would not be surprised if they themselves were trying to figure out the best way to say it. Trying to do that thing were they don't offend anyone . Which is also why it was unlikely a joke. Berman at this stage of Trek is not going to just allow blue humor in his family friendly franchise. If they are to afraid to even admit LGBT people exist he isn't likely to embrace frat humor either. Jason
 
Jayson1 said:
Well if someone doesn't know it's a slur then how can it be a slur from their pov. People only know what they know. As for Tran gendered that is a good question and maybe the reason Spiner changed the line. I would not be surprised if they themselves were trying to figure out the best way to say it. Trying to do that thing were they don't offend anyone . Which is also why it was unlikely a joke. Berman at this stage of Trek is not going to just allow blue humor in his family friendly franchise. If they are to afraid to even admit LGBT people exist he isn't likely to embrace frat humor either. Jason
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Because words have meaning and it doesn't matter if you don't know a slur is a slur because it's still a slur. It's going to have the same impact on others whether or not the person saying it meant any offense or not.
 
It seems really unfair to hold it against someone that they used a word without having any idea it was offensive. That person needs to simply be told, politely, that the word they used was offensive.

If they continue to use it, then sure, they're being deliberately offensive.

Just last week I interacted with someone who was misgendering a friend of mine. I pointed this out to him twice. The third time he misgendered the same person, claiming that this person had pissed him off and so he didn't feel obligated to respect my friend's gender, I let him have it and banned him from a chat group where I had the authority to do so.

I found out after-the-fact that apparently he's from a culture where misgendering an individual is considered a much lesser form of insult than it is in the circles I travel in. I don't like that explanation, and frankly I have my doubts about his sincerity, but I'm not going to flat-out accuse him of lying about it, because what good would come of that? That said, I haven't forgotten either.
 
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Awesome Possum said:
How does that make it okay though? Transphobia as humor had been completely acceptable for decades, some shows are still doing it. Given how widely acceptable it was with the public at the time, it’s not hard to assume that was the point. It would probably get a pass now from many of the same people here.
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It makes it okay (not great, but okay) by virtue of them not meaning to harm anyone and presumably having no reason to believe it would harm anyone.

That it's hard to assume that they didn't know it was offensive may be all the more reason to try. Nobody said assuming good faith was easy.

I suspect that if the film were made in this day and age that they would have used a different word choice, and I choose to believe that. Unless TPTB choose to go on the record, we have no way of knowing either way.
 
DonIago said:
It makes it okay (not great, but okay) by virtue of them not meaning to harm anyone and presumably having no reason to believe it would harm anyone.

That it's hard to assume that they didn't know it was offensive may be all the more reason to try. Nobody said assuming good faith was easy.

I suspect that if the film were made in this day and age that they would have used a different word choice, and I choose to believe that. Unless TPTB choose to go on the record, we have no way of knowing either way.
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No, it makes it profoundly ignorant and it's still using the existence of trans people as a joke, which is shitty regardless of which word they use. They fact that they used a reference to trans people at all for a fucking joke tells me all I really need to know about it. So even if they didn't intend it as a slur, it's still mocking trans people for existing.
 
Awesome Possum said:
No, it makes it profoundly ignorant and it's still using the existence of trans people as a joke, which is shitty regardless of which word they use. They fact that they used a reference to trans people at all for a fucking joke tells me all I really need to know about it. So even if they didn't intend it as a slur, it's still mocking trans people for existing.
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why was no one laughing in that scene if it was a joke?
 
Well we are supposed to laiugh at picard cracking jokes and Guian talking about her old marriages and Worf drunk but find Data being heartwarming. Jason
 
The Wormhole said:
My word, what is it with all this hand-wringing about intent and context or whatever? It was an inappropriate line, end of story. The fact that Gen Pop of 2002 didn't realize it was inappropriate is completely irrelevant to the matter.
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There’s six pages of it! Soooo, I’d say it’s about half done.
 
cultcross said:
It's not an in universe joke.
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I agree but I don't think they were going for laughs from the viewing audience either. There is nothing to indicate we are suppose to laugh when Data says the line. No reaction shot from someone in the audience. Spiner doesn't deliver the line like he is going for a laugh. Nobody in the movie theater actually laughed back in the day.

Also what's weird is this is literally the first time I even heard this criticism anywhere about the scene. Most of Trek's offensive stuff from "No female captains' to Code of Honor and Profit and Lace and especially them not even acknowledging LGBTQ existence up until Discovery has been talked about a lot but this one feels like it's really new and as far as I can tell limited to Trekbbs.


Jason
 
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