Just wondering since we saw the wide use of the Miranda Class and it's variants on DS9. Is it a possible that the Constitution Class Refit style could still be in service. Not so much the ones that were refit but the ones built from the Keel up. Like the Enterprise A was.
Constitution Class 24th Century Question
- Thread starter Jeffmw078
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There is photographic evidence in "The Best of Both Worlds, Part II" to support the idea that the refit Constitution-class ships were still in service (the hull and burned out saucer from Star Trek III are both seen in the wreckage at Wolf 359). And while in "Relics" it is said that there is one Constitution-class starship in the fleet museum, it doesn't say whether there aren't any in active service or whether the one in the museum is actually an original series Constitution-class.
Not to divert too much from the conversation, but the bridge simulator in Star Trek II for the Kobayashi Maru is listed as being from the Enterprise-class starship. So it's possible as well that the refit in the movies was a whole new class of starship, and that to distinguish the two we can refer to the original series ship as Constitution-class and the movie ship as Enterprise-class.
Not to divert too much from the conversation, but the bridge simulator in Star Trek II for the Kobayashi Maru is listed as being from the Enterprise-class starship. So it's possible as well that the refit in the movies was a whole new class of starship, and that to distinguish the two we can refer to the original series ship as Constitution-class and the movie ship as Enterprise-class.
Picard’s old ship the Stargazer was originally supposed to be a Constitution class vessel (a reuse of the Enterprise-A model with a new name and registry) before Greg Jein built a new model based on the kitbash in Picard’s ready room. So there was definitely plans to have the Constitution class in TNG. However, the model was bulky and unwieldy to film (unlike the Excelsior, Reliant and Grissom models), so that’s why we saw the latter on screen as guest ships but not the former.
Whether the ship in "BoBW" was "in service" is debatable: for all we know, a museum piece was dragged back to service kicking and screaming for this single sortie (this stuff really happens in Star Trek, the most recently in Lower Decks).
Whether the ship in "BoBW" was a Constitution is debatable, too. We saw bits and pieces, literally. But the Miranda, the Constellation and even the Sydney are put together out of Constitution pieces.
That said, there's nothing wrong with a Constitution soldiering on in the 24th; starships tend to be like that, sometimes operating tens of thousands of years after their best-before date. And Starfleet is a veteran of maintaining logistics chains for a staggeringly broad range of designs, easily including some obsolete ones as well.
That said, the Constitution appeared to be more a curse than an asset to Starfleet back in ST4:TVH already, with one awarded to Kirk in lieu of a gilded watch and then apparently only ever utilized for missions of humiliation, ones intended to fail. With the history of constant radical refits, no wonder: either there was something badly wrong with the design to begin with, or it was simply ages-old even back when Kirk first got the Enterprise.
And then it was back to Constitution class in the paper graphic seen in ST6. Might be as simple (cough cough COUGH!) as real-world practices: there are different standards of construct and refit, and all are named after the first ship thus converted, even if the name from the first-ever ship of the first-ever version also commonly gets used overall. Only NCC-1701 was ever converted to the Motion Picture standard, hence the name for that subclass; but the Enterprise-A was from a stock for which the refit was spearheaded by the Constitution herself, hence that name.
We don't know if other designs undergo such torturous refit histories, but it's quite possible. Curiously enough, we basically never hear what the class designation for a given starship design would be, not on screen; the ships we think are Mirandas might have sixteen different class names "in reality" for all we know.
Timo Saloniemi
Whether the ship in "BoBW" was a Constitution is debatable, too. We saw bits and pieces, literally. But the Miranda, the Constellation and even the Sydney are put together out of Constitution pieces.
That said, there's nothing wrong with a Constitution soldiering on in the 24th; starships tend to be like that, sometimes operating tens of thousands of years after their best-before date. And Starfleet is a veteran of maintaining logistics chains for a staggeringly broad range of designs, easily including some obsolete ones as well.
That said, the Constitution appeared to be more a curse than an asset to Starfleet back in ST4:TVH already, with one awarded to Kirk in lieu of a gilded watch and then apparently only ever utilized for missions of humiliation, ones intended to fail. With the history of constant radical refits, no wonder: either there was something badly wrong with the design to begin with, or it was simply ages-old even back when Kirk first got the Enterprise.
And then it was back to Constitution class in the paper graphic seen in ST6. Might be as simple (cough cough COUGH!) as real-world practices: there are different standards of construct and refit, and all are named after the first ship thus converted, even if the name from the first-ever ship of the first-ever version also commonly gets used overall. Only NCC-1701 was ever converted to the Motion Picture standard, hence the name for that subclass; but the Enterprise-A was from a stock for which the refit was spearheaded by the Constitution herself, hence that name.
We don't know if other designs undergo such torturous refit histories, but it's quite possible. Curiously enough, we basically never hear what the class designation for a given starship design would be, not on screen; the ships we think are Mirandas might have sixteen different class names "in reality" for all we know.
Timo Saloniemi
The Bozeman was also meant to be a Constitution-Class before budget issues saw them slapping a few greeblies onto the Miranda-Class model and using that instead. Though granted this would still technically be a 23rd century ship now in the 24th, but a few upgrades would see her suitable for service.
I'd never heard that before, interesting. Do you know whether that was something inherent in the design of the model, or a factor of the model itself? (ie if someone were to produce a brand new Enterrprise-A filming model, would that be similarly difficult to film?).
dJE
Despite some evidence to the contrary, I think some of the producers were keen to not have a Connie show up on TNG in order to keep it the patented Movie Ship, as they would later do with the Sovereigns in DS9. The movie guys too were still independent from TNG and fine with this idea. And when Roddenberry was involved, he wanted nothing to do with the movies showing up in his new Star Trek.
So, in-universe perhaps there are some Connies still "in service" but they are no longer in production. Perhaps the Miranda Class and variants were cheaper or easier to produce so that's why we still saw plenty of them in the TNG era.
I'd have loved to see a Connie show up now and then.
I'd have loved to see a Connie show up now and then.
Specifically, the Bozeman was supposed to be a TOS Constitution, which we ended up seeing in “Trials & Tribbleations.”
From what I understand, the model was big and bulky and hard to get cameras around. A newer smaller model would have been easier to work with (just like how Greg Jein built a smaller version of the Excelsior for VOY and DS9.)
The real reason why we saw so many Mirandas in DS9 was because the physical Reliant model was still available to be scanned into a CGI model. In-universe, it really made no sense for such an old design to be prominently shown along with newer classes like the Akira, Steamrunner, Saber, Galaxy, Nebula and Defiant classes.
I did not know that. Learn something new every day!
Yep. The reasoning behind ultimately not using a TOS Connie was because once the model was built, it could not be realistically reused as a guest starship like other models such as the Nebula class or Ambassador class because of how old it was. And it was probably easier to film the Reliant model for the Bozeman rather than the TMP Enterprise for the reasons I stated above. By the time of DS9 and “T&T,” those concerns were not as problematic.
The Refit was big and heavy and ILM hated it. Both the Excelsior and the Miranda were much smaller models.
Except in Star Trek VI, the sheet that Scotty is looking at on the table clearly say Constitution Class. So clearly the Enterprise Class plaque clearly refers to the simulator and not the ship itself.
I think the real reason we did not see Constitution Class except for bits and pieces in the background was that until Star Trek VI wrapped, the model was not available. The few times they might have wanted to use it they likely found what the movie productions did was that the model kept getting loaned out and damaged and it was cost prohibitive to fix it on a TV budget. Plus the conflict of when it might need to be shot. And after ST:VI, it went on display for a year next to its older iteration at the Smithsonian (along with the Klingon Battlecruiser). So that put it at 1993 before anyone could have used it and they didn't. And from what I understand about Trials and Tribbleations, is that Jein and team just went ahead and built those models and once they were built, there was no reason not to use them. So if they had had a second Movie era Constitution Class during TNG, they would likely have used it. But the main 8 foot model was a bit problematic to try and use during the episodes in question.
To give you an idea what the 8 foot TMP Enterprise went through.
After Star Trek III the battle damage was left on and trying to remove it a couple years later caused great damage and resulted in having to repaint a lot of the model (the only noticeable change was to some of the grid lines under the botanical garden windows). Between Star Trek IV and V it got loaned out and one side was painted gray. So for Star Trek V it had to be partially repainted again. Between Star Trek V and VI, the wiring harness was cut off and the bottom of the saucer was painted white. So they had to rebuild the wiring system (they did not replace the lights) and again do a partial repaint. Paul Olsen, who painted the pearlescent lacquer on for TMP saw the model later and was able to find several areas where his original paint was still visible, so the model was never completely repainted. But it also was rarely either in shape to be filmed or available to be filmed. Though it would have been nice during Star Trek V if they could have tacked on some additional filming to use for TNG, but the timing probably didn't align.
To give you an idea what the 8 foot TMP Enterprise went through.
After Star Trek III the battle damage was left on and trying to remove it a couple years later caused great damage and resulted in having to repaint a lot of the model (the only noticeable change was to some of the grid lines under the botanical garden windows). Between Star Trek IV and V it got loaned out and one side was painted gray. So for Star Trek V it had to be partially repainted again. Between Star Trek V and VI, the wiring harness was cut off and the bottom of the saucer was painted white. So they had to rebuild the wiring system (they did not replace the lights) and again do a partial repaint. Paul Olsen, who painted the pearlescent lacquer on for TMP saw the model later and was able to find several areas where his original paint was still visible, so the model was never completely repainted. But it also was rarely either in shape to be filmed or available to be filmed. Though it would have been nice during Star Trek V if they could have tacked on some additional filming to use for TNG, but the timing probably didn't align.
Ironically, The Battle becomes the only episode of TNG in which Picard doesn't have the Stargazer in his ready room, it was replaced with a Constitution model because they thought the Stargazer would be Constitution class while filming.
Yes, I believe Jein took the model at that point to use as a reference for his full-scale studio model.
I'd have rathered they just gave them Excelsior as was the original plan. It would have meant lasting change rather than them ending movie IV as if II and III never happened.
I just figured the Miranda, Oberth, and Excelsiors came into service in the 2270-2280s, while the Constitution goes back to the 2240s, so it was probably retired a few decades earlier.
