Which version of TOS is canon??

[yotsuya]

He stilled mutinied. He admits as much. Again I quote

And yes, he was put on trial. That Mendez was an illusion doesn't change that.

Basically, the charges were dropped. Just like they were dropped when Spock tried commandeering the ship in Amok Time. Nice to have friends in high places willing to sweep things under the rug.

I beg to differ. While we as the audience got to see the trial, with Mendez being an illusion, nothing that happened was valid. He was cleared of any wrong doing by Starfleet so it would not go on the records and because of that, Spock's later comment is absolutely correct.

 

[Nerys Myk]

I beg to differ. While we as the audience got to see the trial, with Mendez being an illusion, nothing that happened was valid. He was cleared of any wrong doing by Starfleet so it would not go on the records and because of that, Spock's later comment is absolutely correct.

Nope. They decided to not press charges. He still committed the crimes.

 

[F. King Daniel]

That is how they were portrayed for the last 50 years. And one nice reference to that classic novel does not negate all the things they goofed on.

Last 50? No chance. TOS Klingons were completely different to TNG/DS9 ones. Moreso than the Discovery ones to the TNG/DS9 ones, IMHO.

 

[Kor]

Last 50? No chance. TOS Klingons were completely different to TNG/DS9 ones. Moreso than the Discovery ones to the TNG/DS9 ones, IMHO.

I think he may have meant that the Klingons have always been depicted as a monoculture, even if the monoculture changed. This is the case with most Trek species, though.

Kor

 

[Shawnster]

I think he may have meant that the Klingons have always been depicted as a monoculture, even if the monoculture changed. This is the case with most Trek species, though.

Kor

Yep. All the non human species seem to be depicted as monolithic. Food, art, design, language... Only humans seem to retain cultural diversity.

 

[Henoch]

Nope. They decided to not press charges. He still committed the crimes.

Spock's Defense:
SPOCK: I was under the influence of the evil Talosians. I plead temporary insanity.
SPOCK: I was under the influence of the evil Spores. I plead temporary insanity.
SPOCK: I was under the influence of the evil Pon Farr. I plead temporary insanity.

After which, Starfleet promotes Spock to Commander.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Spock's Defense:
SPOCK: I was under the influence of the evil Talosians. I plead temporary insanity.
SPOCK: I was under the influence of the evil Spores. I plead temporary insanity.
SPOCK: I was under the influence of the evil Pon Farr. I plead temporary insanity.

After which, Starfleet promotes Spock to Commander.

Dude lived a charmed life. When Daddy is the Vulcan Ambassador you can get away with, well anything.

 

[yotsuya]

I think he may have meant that the Klingons have always been depicted as a monoculture, even if the monoculture changed. This is the case with most Trek species, though.

Kor

Yes. It was depicted as a monoculture in all the previous Treks. I would argue it was in Discovery as well, but so alien from anything seen before that it would have to be some sub-culture that was not active at any other time. But also, Disovery the Klingons were supposed to have been out of touch where in TOS there had been unremitting hostility for most of a century before. And the stupid four nostrils. I just can't let that one go. And Enterprise and DS9 made clear that the TOS more human looking Klingons were the same and Discovery does nothing with that. Sure we see a conversion like our Klingon spy in Tribbles, but were are the others. Previous Trek embraced TOS's visual differences and wrote it in to the story and lore and Discvery threw all that out. And they did provide a reason why the Klingons were monocultural. Conquest. The followers of Kahless had conquered Q'onos. Just like they continued to conquer the worlds of the Klingon Empire and tried to carry that over into Federation space, sparking many conflicts. I consider the Klingons, in terms of visuals, culture, history, and just about everything, to be a break with previous canon Klingons. The season 1 Klingons were so badly received that they redid them for season 2, creating a continuity issue within Discovery itself.

 

[yotsuya]

Spock's Defense:
SPOCK: I was under the influence of the evil Talosians. I plead temporary insanity.
SPOCK: I was under the influence of the evil Spores. I plead temporary insanity.
SPOCK: I was under the influence of the evil Pon Farr. I plead temporary insanity.

After which, Starfleet promotes Spock to Commander.

None of which went on the record. Spock was always very precise and could honestly say there was no record of a mutiny. Discovery didn't do that. They made it very public and had her in prison for mutiny. See the difference?

 

[yotsuya]

No. ST: D does not overwrite ST: TOS. They are two separate shows with differing continuities.

The ship, uniforms, and tech in ST: TOS are how they're suppose to be in ST: TOS's continuity.

The ship, uniforms, and tech in ST: D are how they're suppose to be in ST: D's continuity.

This sums up my feelings exactly.

 

[Noname Given]

None of which he was put on trial for. Commodore Mendez was an illusion. Also, he did not sway, or even try to sway any of the crew to his side. He acted alone and without violence.

The technician whom he fought with and ultimately neck pinched, and just left on the floor of the computer center, would disagree with you.

Also, Captain Pike was beeping nose so often he was in a real state of agitation, and at that time was totally against what Spock was planning; so spark effectively kidnapped a disabled Starfleet Fleet Captain against his will.
^^^
So technically while it's not physically violent, it's definitely a mentally violent act in that Captain Pike did not want to go with Spock to Talos IV.

And it's only due to the decision of Commodore Mendez that neither Spock nor Kirk had to submit to a court-martial proceeding after the incident; but Spock did comment grievous offenses against the Federation and Starfleet itself; and also freely admitted his guilt directly to Dr. McCoy and anyone else within earshot on the bridge of the 1701 as Spock gave his confession. Thus there was no doubt as to his guilt in these actions.

 

[Henoch]

Thus there was no doubt as to his guilt in these actions.

Yet, are there no consequences, either? Possibly, it may have delayed his official promotion to Full Commander another year.

 

[FormerLurker]

I haven't seen even a full episode of DSC, so I cannot say this definitively, but I got the impression that the DSC Klingons weren't actually Klingons, and were more likely the Hur'q. Feel free to chastise me for this at your discretion.

 

[fireproof78]

. ST: D does not overwrite ST: TOS. They are two separate shows with differing continuities.

The ship, uniforms, and tech in ST: TOS are how they're suppose to be in ST: TOS's continuity.

The ship, uniforms, and tech in ST: D are how they're suppose to be in ST: D's continuity.

Or, its two ways of telling stories in this world. The rest is minutia. How much the minutia will vary.

 

[Noname Given]

I haven't seen even a full episode of DSC, so I cannot say this definitively, but I got the impression that the DSC Klingons weren't actually Klingons, and were more likely the Hur'q. Feel free to chastise me for this at your discretion.

They weren't Klingons in the same way that the Klingons shown on the K'Tanga D-7 ships at the start of Star Trek: The Motion Picture weren't Klingons in 1979.

In other words: Yes the Klingon shown on Star Trek Discovery were Klingons.

 

[Nerys Myk]

I haven't seen even a full episode of DSC, so I cannot say this definitively, but I got the impression that the DSC Klingons weren't actually Klingons, and were more likely the Hur'q. Feel free to chastise me for this at your discretion.

What were the Hur'q like? I always draw a blank when the name comes up.
DISCO's Klingons seem Klingon enough to me. Houses feuding. Blathering about Honor. Strange affinity for bladed weapons.

 

[Tim Thomason]

I haven't seen even a full episode of DSC, so I cannot say this definitively, but I got the impression that the DSC Klingons weren't actually Klingons, and were more likely the Hur'q. Feel free to chastise me for this at your discretion.

The show literally opens up with them talking in Klingon about how they must always remain Klingon. And then, when they finally show Starfleet confront them, they're all like "OMG, look guys, it's the Klingons!"

I have a suspicion they might be Klingons.

 

[Kor]

What were the Hur'q like? I always draw a blank when the name comes up.
...

DS9 mentioned the Hur'q in the "Sword of Kahless" episode. Almost nothing is known about them except that they invaded and pillaged the Klingon home world centuries ago and then left. We don't even know if they were a bipedal, vaguely humanoid species or not. I think tie-in stuff like books and games may have assumed that they weren't, but I'm not clear on the details.

Kor

 

[BK613]

Spock's Defense:
SPOCK: I was under the influence of the evil Talosians. I plead temporary insanity.
SPOCK: I was under the influence of the evil Spores. I plead temporary insanity.
SPOCK: I was under the influence of the evil Pon Farr. I plead temporary insanity.

After which, Starfleet promotes Spock to Commander.

It should be noted that, in the real world, mutiny requires at least two people for it to occur (emphasis added.) The only individual charge come from a failure to report:

UCMJ Art. 94. (§ 894.) 2004 Mutiny or Sedition.
(a) Any person subject to this code (chapter) who—
(1) with intent to usurp or override lawful military authority, refuses, in concert with any other person, to obey orders or otherwise do his duty or creates any violence or disturbance is guilty of mutiny;
(2) with intent to cause the overthrow or destruction of lawful civil authority, creates, in concert with any other person, revolt, violence, or other disturbance against that authority is guilty of sedition;
(3) fails to do his utmost to prevent and suppress a mutiny or sedition being committed in his presence, or fails to take all reasonable means to inform his superior commissioned officer or commanding officer of a mutiny or sedition which he knows or has reason to believe is taking place, is guilty of a failure to suppress or report a mutiny or sedition.
(b) A person who is found guilty of attempted mutiny, mutiny, sedition, or failure to suppress or report a mutiny or sedition shall be punished by death or such other punishment as a court-martial may direct.​

 

[Commishsleer]

It should be noted that, in the real world, mutiny requires at least two people for it to occur (emphasis added.) The only individual charge come from a failure to report:

UCMJ Art. 94. (§ 894.) 2004 Mutiny or Sedition.
(a) Any person subject to this code (chapter) who—
(1) with intent to usurp or override lawful military authority, refuses, in concert with any other person, to obey orders or otherwise do his duty or creates any violence or disturbance is guilty of mutiny;
(2) with intent to cause the overthrow or destruction of lawful civil authority, creates, in concert with any other person, revolt, violence, or other disturbance against that authority is guilty of sedition;
(3) fails to do his utmost to prevent and suppress a mutiny or sedition being committed in his presence, or fails to take all reasonable means to inform his superior commissioned officer or commanding officer of a mutiny or sedition which he knows or has reason to believe is taking place, is guilty of a failure to suppress or report a mutiny or sedition.
(b) A person who is found guilty of attempted mutiny, mutiny, sedition, or failure to suppress or report a mutiny or sedition shall be punished by death or such other punishment as a court-martial may direct.​

I agree with you that my perception is that a mutiny would involve more than one person.
I'm thinking of the occasions where the Enterprise has been taken over.
Dr Severin, Dr Korby, Mudds Robots and Deela's people and the Andromedians wouldn't count as a mutiny as they were enemy attacks.
However when Dr McCoy sent up the plants and Riley took over the engine room I think would be regarded as mutiny if they were in their 'right' minds.
I think Spock's mutiny at Talos while technically not a mutiny because he didn't encouraged any others to disobey Kirk ( in fact encouraged loyalty to Kirk) would be a moral mutiny in my eyes because Spock caused the computers aboard ship to disobey Kirk.
The closest thing to an actual mutiny would be Turnabout Intruder at the end when Chekov and Sulu and the others refused to operate the ship and obey orders. Although Scott and McCoy said they might mutiny, I don't think there actions would be considered a mutiny as Lester caught them before they could do anything.