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Regional defenses?

Unicron

Additional Pylon
Moderator
I was watching an interesting video last night about how, after WWII, many surplus B-17s were used as drone targets to help test new anti-air defenses for the Cold War, among other uses. This got me thinking about the possibility that, rather than just decommissioning and mothballing a lot of older ships, maybe some of them could be refit in similar fashion?

Perhaps one possibility would be as enemy simulator ships, with either some form of automation or a handful of crew to test scenarios with multiple ships. Jackill's work has a modified torpedo that's designed to do some of this work, although I tend to think it wouldn't always duplicate the effects of a real ship. FASA suggested it wasn't uncommon for the main navies to sell older ships as civilian or local defense units, properly modified, and that each navy also had a small number of captured enemy vessels used for training purposes. They did a similar thing in Battletech, with many older vessels sold to minor powers and some designs modified for the automated SDS system.
 
I think a lot of PMC (Private Military Contractors) or Mercenary's or Privatized StarFleet-like Corporations would be allowed to get ahold of them and go into business for themselves.

Having alot of companies use older hulls and create their own technologies to mount their own equipment would create an entire industry for after market parts.
 
I was watching an interesting video last night about how, after WWII, many surplus B-17s were used as drone targets to help test new anti-air defenses for the Cold War, among other uses. This got me thinking about the possibility that, rather than just decommissioning and mothballing a lot of older ships, maybe some of them could be refit in similar fashion?

Perhaps one possibility would be as enemy simulator ships, with either some form of automation or a handful of crew to test scenarios with multiple ships. Jackill's work has a modified torpedo that's designed to do some of this work, although I tend to think it wouldn't always duplicate the effects of a real ship. FASA suggested it wasn't uncommon for the main navies to sell older ships as civilian or local defense units, properly modified, and that each navy also had a small number of captured enemy vessels used for training purposes. They did a similar thing in Battletech, with many older vessels sold to minor powers and some designs modified for the automated SDS system.

Starfleet frequently refits old ship designs until such a time arrives they deem the old hull too old to refit (which probably wouldn't be much of an issue with stuff like programmable matter - heck, even with energy to matter replicators really).

The 80 year old Excelsior class (USS Lakota) was refitted with modern technology just prior to the Dominion War and it was tactically on par with the Defiant (actually, it may have been stronger because the Defiant had the benefit of Ablative armor, whereas the Lakota did not) and it was suggested the Lakota would have been much faster at Warp too.

That said, I remember that in TNG, the Romulans experimented with phase cloaking of their own (the episode in which LaForge and Laren were phased out) and their ship's computer needed replacement. Worf objected to giving them latest technology (which was something they couldn't do), but Riker did suggest giving the Romulans a 20-30 years old computer core to get them back to Romulan space.

Discovery was also retrofitted in the 31st century with modern technology and materials quite extensively to the point where its external appearance was changed as well.

I'm a little confused as to what you mean by 'regional defenses' though.
Planets in the Federation do have their own defensive grids (in the form of orbital weapons and planetary shields which are upgraded - however, during the Dominion War, the Betazed planetary defenses were in the midst of being upgraded and because one of their fleets were caught 'with their pants down' that it was easier for the Dominion to swoop in and take Betazed).
The Dominon War did expose some shortcomings in Starfleet's preparedness though... one would think that since they anticipated a possible war with the Dominion, they would have upgraded all defensive grids throughout the Federation simultaneously (at the same time the USS Lakota was upgraded)... so that bit didn't exactly make too much sense to me, but ok.
 
Well, regional defense is just a generic term for having older fleet units as maybe one core of a planetary defense, or in charge of a strategic sector. :) Since it's possible that not every planet would have the same resources, especially if one wants to use FASA's concept of tiered Federation membership (some planets are full members with appropriate rights and duties, and others are only associate members with fewer rights and duties). As I recall, this is precisely the duty that the perimeter action ships were built specifically for - fast ships with a powerful armament for their size, to act as a first response to attacks in a strategic sector. FASA on a few occasions mentioned the Andorians having their own "Blue Fleet" of ships and having a hand in designing several of the main ship classes, although they didn't clarify what features of these ships are distinctly Andorian.

I'd think as far as trying to upgrade everything simultaneously, it would vary a great deal according to the member's resources and perceived importance in the event of an actual conflict. I'm perhaps less convinced it could be done simultaneously for various reasons, though YMMV on that. ;)

Martok said he was impressed that the Breen would launch a direct assault on Earth, even knowing that such a mission was practically suicide, and the discovery of the wormhole made the Bajoran sector (and DS9) far more important than it was before. Maxwell said in "The Wounded" that one reason he was highly suspicious of the Cardassians was their putting a science installation within reach of three crucial Federation sectors. It could be that even if that installation was really designed mainly for science, Maxwell's point is still valid. "The Defector" also said that the Federation wasn't prepared for a sustained conflict with the Romulans, although that possibility might occur.
 
I though Regional Defense was like how each US State has their "National Guard" and their local defense forces which are part of the National Defense Umbrella within the US.

The same would apply to each Planet that are part of the UFP where each Planet has their local bases and Defense Systems that are locally run with common standards being discussed and passed down to everybody else as "Minimum Standards" to meet.

Planets with a population of 7-digits or more should have a sort of "Minimum Standard" to uphold to while Planets with a population of 6-digits or less would be closer to a "Colony-Status" and would have make-shift Defense that doesn't necessarily have to meet any "Minimum Standard" due to lack of man-power to meet that requirement.
 
I'd think as far as trying to upgrade everything simultaneously, it would vary a great deal according to the member's resources and perceived importance in the event of an actual conflict. I'm perhaps less convinced it could be done simultaneously for various reasons, though YMMV on that. ;)

There are certain guidelines prospective member species need to meet in order to be admitted into the Federation.
Once they DO get admitted, each and every planet probably has (like #KamenRiderBlade mentioned) 'minimum standards' (which would include starship construction facilities, replicator technology, industrial facilities, etc.).
Doing a simultaneous upgrade of all systems in all of Federation space would actually be dead easy in the late 24th century (heck, even in the 22nd and 23rd centuries).
Why?
Automation (its at least thousands of times faster and more efficient than people, so upgrades would likely be overseen by SF officers sure, but automation would likely be doing everything).

Martok said he was impressed that the Breen would launch a direct assault on Earth, even knowing that such a mission was practically suicide, and the discovery of the wormhole made the Bajoran sector (and DS9) far more important than it was before. Maxwell said in "The Wounded" that one reason he was highly suspicious of the Cardassians was their putting a science installation within reach of three crucial Federation sectors. It could be that even if that installation was really designed mainly for science, Maxwell's point is still valid. "The Defector" also said that the Federation wasn't prepared for a sustained conflict with the Romulans, although that possibility might occur.

To be fair, Earth was heavily fortified by the time Dominion War started and launching an attack against ANY Federation species planet would have equally been a suicide (realistically speaking).
 
I though Regional Defense was like how each US State has their "National Guard" and their local defense forces which are part of the National Defense Umbrella within the US.

The same would apply to each Planet that are part of the UFP where each Planet has their local bases and Defense Systems that are locally run with common standards being discussed and passed down to everybody else as "Minimum Standards" to meet.

That might be one example of regional defense, with perhaps the Blue Fleet being a force that helps protect Andor as one example. I agree that there should be a minimum standard, and FASA loosely suggested that the core Federation members each tended to contribute their own areas of expertise - the Vulcans handled much of the exploration and science elements, the Andorians defense and military operations, the Tellarites engineering and construction etc.

That being said, I think there's also the potential problem that not all technologies from multiple planets are going to be inherently compatible, and not every world would necessarily want all forms of technology even if some (replicators, for example) would be of significant benefit. The Starfleet crew on DS9 had some difficulty in both repairing the mess the Cardassians left, and in getting some aspects of their technology to work with Cardassian tech.

And when technology makes significant advances, let's say when the Excelsior became a largely successful design, how long would it take to potentially upgrade docks and other facilities to work with technology the Excelsior needed but older ships didn't use? Scotty says in TMP that the modified Enterprise represented 18 months of work (a year and a half) with a significant number of changes, with Decker saying it was practically a new ship compared to the last time Kirk was in command. And it clearly had a few final bugs to work out. :D

Doing a simultaneous upgrade of all systems in all of Federation space would actually be dead easy in the late 24th century (heck, even in the 22nd and 23rd centuries).
Why?
Automation (its at least thousands of times faster and more efficient than people, so upgrades would likely be overseen by SF officers sure, but automation would likely be doing everything).

Well, again we might have to agree to disagree on some aspects. I do agree with you that automation can solve a lot of problems, but I'm also of the mind Trek shouldn't be too automated or advanced because that would cause all sorts of story problems. To say nothing of how many times we've seen the HALodecks malfunction. :whistle:To use a non-Trek example, the Clans (Star League Defense Force descendants) in Battletech perfected omni-technology for most of their units, which means each unit has a fully modular array of weapons and equipment. You can swap out one configuration for another in typically much less time, and with easier repair, than a unit with a fixed equipment base, and thus gain a higher degree of flexibility with the omni unit.

The main downsides are that omnis are much more expensive than classical fixed designs, and it doesn't always follow that each configuration of a unit will necessarily be as good as its non-omni counterpart (because the omni has to be able to focus on multiple roles). And if you don't have the right advanced parts available, then using the omni system becomes much less flexible than trying to fix a more standard design that has more common or readily available parts. Different regions and states have significant variance in the level of technology they have available, so a Clan unit that got stuck on a Periphery world with Succession Wars era tech would have some problems.

Units like capital warships are far too large to employ omni technology, although fighters do make use of it. Even reverse engineering technology, as happened with early House omnimechs after the Clan invasion, isn't always perfect. The first such units were able to duplicate the modularity but had to use chassis and other equipment that was less advanced than the Clan industrial base, and it took some time to make more advanced omni units available. Ones that could actually match their counterparts more effectively or even as a superior model.

To be fair, Earth was heavily fortified by the time Dominion War started and launching an attack against ANY Federation species planet would have equally been a suicide (realistically speaking).

I think you're right, but the Dominion managed to conquer Betazed anyway. Maybe they're less heavily fortified than some key Federation worlds? I can't recall atm what sort of defenses Vulcan had in the timeline where Nero destroyed it. :rommie:

Battletech does have some planetary defenses, although most dedicated ones were lost during the Succession Wars due to either combat or the inability to maintain Star League technology, while the overall level of tech had degraded significantly. While the League level of technology has since been regained, and even improved upon, such defenses are still less common than in the League's heyday.
 
That might be one example of regional defense, with perhaps the Blue Fleet being a force that helps protect Andor as one example. I agree that there should be a minimum standard, and FASA loosely suggested that the core Federation members each tended to contribute their own areas of expertise - the Vulcans handled much of the exploration and science elements, the Andorians defense and military operations, the Tellarites engineering and construction etc.
I remember reading somewhere that all UFP member worlds contributed their technology into StarFleet so that they can pool all their resources together to get the best possible results in every category along with converting all their previous independent military, exploration, R&D forces into one giant pool. That's why StarFleet is as good as they are now with only a general sense of military apathy biting them in the ass during the Borg Encounters @ Battle of Wolf 359 and Earth along with the Dominion War. Then they got their act together and started taking Defense seriously when they nearly lost in each encounter.

Wolf359 was essentially 9/11 for the UFP and the UFP got lucky that JLP managed to have a shred of humanity left to convey the "Sleep" message to Data so he can hack their systems to put them to sleep.

Battle of Earth was also "Lucky" that JLP violated existing orders and went in and saved the day by taking over Fleet Command.

The Dominion War had a critical portion of the war depend on pure luck that "The Sisko" was on very good terms with the Worm Hole Aliens and that they made the Dominion backup fleet "Vanish", other wise the UFP and the allies would've got curb stomped by the reinforcements.

'The Dominion' losing a giant backup Armada waiting in the Wormhole made them think twice about sending another armada to wait at the mouth of the Worm Hole or within the Worm Hole.

That being said, I think there's also the potential problem that not all technologies from multiple planets are going to be inherently compatible, and not every world would necessarily want all forms of technology even if some (replicators, for example) would be of significant benefit. The Starfleet crew on DS9 had some difficulty in both repairing the mess the Cardassians left, and in getting some aspects of their technology to work with Cardassian tech.
That's because the Cardassians aren't part of the UFP at the time, so there was no reason to make their tech compatible.

And when technology makes significant advances, let's say when the Excelsior became a largely successful design, how long would it take to potentially upgrade docks and other facilities to work with technology the Excelsior needed but older ships didn't use? Scotty says in TMP that the modified Enterprise represented 18 months of work (a year and a half) with a significant number of changes, with Decker saying it was practically a new ship compared to the last time Kirk was in command. And it clearly had a few final bugs to work out. :D
You got to remember that the Enterprise was a RetroFit / Upgrade. Ergo stripping it down to the Skeletal Frame Work takes time on top of adding in new equipment.

Well, again we might have to agree to disagree on some aspects. I do agree with you that automation can solve a lot of problems, but I'm also of the mind Trek shouldn't be too automated or advanced because that would cause all sorts of story problems. To say nothing of how many times we've seen the HALodecks malfunction. :whistle:To use a non-Trek example, the Clans (Star League Defense Force descendants) in Battletech perfected omni-technology for most of their units, which means each unit has a fully modular array of weapons and equipment. You can swap out one configuration for another in typically much less time, and with easier repair, than a unit with a fixed equipment base, and thus gain a higher degree of flexibility with the omni unit.
I think the best solution is "Man & Machine" working together, each half doing what they're good at.

The main downsides are that omnis are much more expensive than classical fixed designs, and it doesn't always follow that each configuration of a unit will necessarily be as good as its non-omni counterpart (because the omni has to be able to focus on multiple roles). And if you don't have the right advanced parts available, then using the omni system becomes much less flexible than trying to fix a more standard design that has more common or readily available parts. Different regions and states have significant variance in the level of technology they have available, so a Clan unit that got stuck on a Periphery world with Succession Wars era tech would have some problems.
Look at IRL with the US Military, they are converting to a "OMNI" like system with all their armaments using a common "Plug & Play Architecture known as UAI (Universal Armament Interface) where all weapons in US military will interface with their platforms via the US Military defined UAI protocol. Think of it as "Plug & Play" drivers for all the Missiles/Bombs/Guns/etc mounted on major weapons platforms.

Units like capital warships are far too large to employ omni technology, although fighters do make use of it. Even reverse engineering technology, as happened with early House omnimechs after the Clan invasion, isn't always perfect. The first such units were able to duplicate the modularity but had to use chassis and other equipment that was less advanced than the Clan industrial base, and it took some time to make more advanced omni units available. Ones that could actually match their counterparts more effectively or even as a superior model.
It does take time for the logistics chain to convert, but once everything is converted, it makes it far easier to add and integrate armaments into existing platforms in the future. It's a one time conversion pain point, but the long term benefits are worth it.


I think you're right, but the Dominion managed to conquer Betazed anyway. Maybe they're less heavily fortified than some key Federation worlds? I can't recall atm what sort of defenses Vulcan had in the timeline where Nero destroyed it. :rommie:

Battletech does have some planetary defenses, although most dedicated ones were lost during the Succession Wars due to either combat or the inability to maintain Star League technology, while the overall level of tech had degraded significantly. While the League level of technology has since been regained, and even improved upon, such defenses are still less common than in the League's heyday.
We finally got to see some "Planetary Shields" in ST:PIC.S1, and in ST:DIS.S3.

So hopefully we'll get to see more Planetary & System Defenses like that in the future.
 
Always thought that each planet would have there own "Home Fleet" of ships that would act as defense for that world/system. And said fleet would compromise of Defense, Science, etc. like the Vulcan Expeditionary fleet, like each planet would like to do there own research that would not based on federation ships. Example would be say Vulcan is interested in going to planet X, but the Federation doesn't seem to have that as a high priority, might get to it. So Vulcan as a planet sends its own ships to explore it. Be it the planet paying some private ship or use there own fleet.

Now as for hand me downs, we do that today. Example was France sold its aircraft carrier to, i think China? and when we stop flying a certain plane, we might send planes that are still within there service life to other airforces, or sell them.

So I would think some planets would request old ships that might not be worthwhile for Starfleet to refit might be "Sold" to other member planets, or colonies, maybe even friendly allies. I could see a far flung colony world that is either just getting started, or is on a colonist boom, wanting a ship for system defense or for courier/cargo duty. Even an old Miranda Class would probably deter pirates, or other ner do wellers from attacking the planet or cargo ships.

So like today planes/ships etc. have a service life, or like engines, only so many hours between refits, so lets say a Miranda class that is approaching its warp hours limit, would be given to a planet for system defense because they wouldn't be doing may light years, so it may act as a system defense ship for another decade before it needs a major refit, so cost effective for them to give them an old ship as apposed to having a newer ship make frequent visits to guard the system.
 
Always thought that each planet would have there own "Home Fleet" of ships that would act as defense for that world/system. And said fleet would compromise of Defense, Science, etc. like the Vulcan Expeditionary fleet, like each planet would like to do there own research that would not based on federation ships. Example would be say Vulcan is interested in going to planet X, but the Federation doesn't seem to have that as a high priority, might get to it. So Vulcan as a planet sends its own ships to explore it. Be it the planet paying some private ship or use there own fleet.

I don't see why each species would have their own fleets sitting there (would make for incredibly boring posting). Maybe in general vicinity so they could get back quickly in an event of an emergency, but realistically, each member species solar system would have to have large compliment of automated defenses coupled with armed starbases... or better yes, a Dyson Swarm (would basically be impenetrable with that).

Now as for hand me downs, we do that today. Example was France sold its aircraft carrier to, i think China? and when we stop flying a certain plane, we might send planes that are still within there service life to other airforces, or sell them.

Since the Federation doesn't use money, I would imagine that old relatively older designs would find their way to other people - such as colonies and individuals.
The Maquis were using a lot of 30 year old raiders for example.

So I would think some planets would request old ships that might not be worthwhile for Starfleet to refit might be "Sold" to other member planets, or colonies, maybe even friendly allies. I could see a far flung colony world that is either just getting started, or is on a colonist boom, wanting a ship for system defense or for courier/cargo duty. Even an old Miranda Class would probably deter pirates, or other ner do wellers from attacking the planet or cargo ships.

Well, we have seen SF refitting and upgrading older ships all the time, but its also possible that they would give these older upgraded ships to colonies etc. if requested... mainly because SF is building new designs all the time (or at least, new ship designs seem to come out every 5 to 10 years, possibly 15 years) so the newest hulls could take precedence whereas the older ones are given to other systems (though they'd have to stay within Federation space if upgrade as those would still have state of the art technology - and you don't want that falling into the wrong hands).

So like today planes/ships etc. have a service life, or like engines, only so many hours between refits, so lets say a Miranda class that is approaching its warp hours limit, would be given to a planet for system defense because they wouldn't be doing may light years, so it may act as a system defense ship for another decade before it needs a major refit, so cost effective for them to give them an old ship as apposed to having a newer ship make frequent visits to guard the system.

Is there such a thing as a 'warp hours limit' on starships though? The USS Prometheus (or a Prometheus type ship) was seen in an alternate timeline fighting the sphere builders about 200 years since the time it was originally designed in.
The Burn also featured mostly 125 year old ship designs (some possibly even older than that).

Though I suppose its possible that the 23rd century ships would have an 'upper usable limit' of 100 odd years (more if completely refitted), and 24th century ships of say 200 years.
As technology advances though, it would be doable to further increase the operational lifespan of the ship in service and still upgrade it with modern technology on a continuous basis. That way, some design changes on the ship itself would become apparent over time, but the underlying basic shape would likely remain the same.

Looking at the USS Discovery, it underwent modifications to its exterior hull as part of its refit... but that could be a product of 32nd century algorithms maximizing optimization of hull configuration based on what was already there and bringing it in line with 32nd century standards.

The USS Lakota was a refit Excelsior, and those refits happened within 10 - 15 years of the Excelsior class being put into service... but the 24th century Lakota sported that same 80 year old refit... its possible that back then the algorithms had nothing much to optimize except for replacement of outer hull with say Tritanium or Duranium contemporary to 24th century, along with modernized innards (resulting in much higher warp speeds, tactical systems etc).
 
You can "Refit/Rebuild" till the heat death of the universe. Parts have service life, in Voyager, had an episode where they were on a planet changing out the Warp Coils because they went past there service life. Basically, things break/breakdown and need replacement or refurbishment.
Now ships need refits. Lets look at Aircraft carriers, they need a minor refit after each 12-18 month mission, be it just minor maintence, refuel, cleaning etc. and I'm thinking every 10 years needs a Major refit, changing propellers, load bearing items etc.
This is shown in Trek with the Refit of the Constitution class. There were minor refits after the 5 year missions, new warp nacelles, new bridge, Nav Deflector, etc. but after 20 years, it needed a Major refit.
Now refits cost, not necessarily money, but resources. How much stuff does it cost to refit vs. how much to build a new ship all together.
As said, things age, break etc. Even the load bearing stress members, hull, etc.
Now there's the upgradeability of the ship, as time goes by, new stuff is invented, and older ships are refitted to update to new standards, but at some point you can't upgrade it without an almost complete rebuild.
Example is the Ohio class sub, there power generation capability's were at the limit and any further upgrades required a bigger reactor, that was impossible, so a new class was built.
What would it take to rip out a warp core and Auxiliaries? Lay new eps conduits?

So it gets to a point where a ship just isn't worth refiting/upgrading, however for Colony defense, cargo, Science, etc. the ship would be still usefull, so its given to them. Now some ships are just worn down and not good for anything, and are scrapped.
 
You can "Refit/Rebuild" till the heat death of the universe. Parts have service life, in Voyager, had an episode where they were on a planet changing out the Warp Coils because they went past there service life. Basically, things break/breakdown and need replacement or refurbishment.

This is one thing I never agreed with on Trek.
In the real world, thing fall apart usually because we DESIGN them to do so and promote sales of new items in the long run... even though we CAN design technology which virtually never breaks down and is capable of self-repair or self-maintenance (should it be needed).

In the Federation, the materials in question would be produced synthetically with minimal environmental footprint while having superior properties - for comparison, we designed numerous synthetic materials since 1970-ies that can be produced in sustainable abundance with minimal impact to the environment, and yet, we don't do so mainly because of a system based on profit and cost efficiency (not sustainability, problem solving and technical efficiency).

For warp coils that need servicing/refurbishment after say 6 odd years in the field is a bit preposterous... especially if you take into account we're talking about an organization with over 200 years worth of experience, being in multiple conflicts because of encounters with hostile aliens, dangerous anomalies, etc.

And while yes, ships undergo attacks (which strains them), I don't think they would require a 'refurbishment' in less than a decade because they'd be designed to accommodate for such mishaps - and SF projections can be rather accurate.

Now ships need refits. Lets look at Aircraft carriers, they need a minor refit after each 12-18 month mission, be it just minor maintence, refuel, cleaning etc. and I'm thinking every 10 years needs a Major refit, changing propellers, load bearing items etc.

Yes, but money is a limiting factor in how you design things. The military also has contractors who want to ensure a steady supply of new parts to the military and money to keep themselves in business.
Such limitations wouldn't exist for Starfleet.

This is shown in Trek with the Refit of the Constitution class. There were minor refits after the 5 year missions, new warp nacelles, new bridge, Nav Deflector, etc. but after 20 years, it needed a Major refit.
Now refits cost, not necessarily money, but resources. How much stuff does it cost to refit vs. how much to build a new ship all together.

In the 24th century, it costs nothing but energy since replicators then are able to create matter from energy... and that can be obtained in massive quantities from local stars... and ships could probably harvest solar energy in massive amounts on the go if they need to in order to not strain their anti-matter supplies and could technically manufacture what they need on their own.
We've seen from Discovery that both it and Enterprise fashioned a huge assortment of shuttles and pods in their fight against Control in a short amount of time - which actually further solidifies the notion that starships would technically need to have industrial capabilities onboard to provide relief efforts and service themselves in the long run.

Also, the USS Discovery Calypso is canon, and Disco has been waiting for 1000 years after current events (beyond 32nd century) with Zora evolving on a continuous basis.

As said, things age, break etc. Even the load bearing stress members, hull, etc.
Now there's the upgradeability of the ship, as time goes by, new stuff is invented, and older ships are refitted to update to new standards, but at some point you can't upgrade it without an almost complete rebuild.
Example is the Ohio class sub, there power generation capability's were at the limit and any further upgrades required a bigger reactor, that was impossible, so a new class was built.
What would it take to rip out a warp core and Auxiliaries? Lay new eps conduits?

Technically, you just beam them out of ships and replicate newest state of the art technology in their place.
Also, because of the law of accelerating returns and technical efficiency, new technology will inevitably end up being smaller, far more powerful and efficient.
If anything, you will be left with EXTRA space on say the USS Lakota if you refit it to 24th century standards... similarly, you can beam out old conduits (or basically recycle them into energy and create new state of the art ones)... repeat and rinse for the entire ship.
If automation is doing it... it wouldn't really take long at all because a transporter can easily accommodate large groups of people, or a shuttlecraft with each transporter cycle... and if such upgrades are done at proper facilities (such as starbases and drydocks which are usually in star systems and have access to say huge amount of solar energy from local stars), you basically end up with virtually inexhaustible amounts of energy.

Heck, even without 24th century replicators, molecular or atomic manufacturing from 23rd century could still be easily accomplished and similarly, you can use transporters for beaming the older bits and pieces out.

In the 24th century, you can just beam out and beam in directly the new frame (or bits and pieces) simultaneously if needed - it would only become easier as time goes on.
Starfleet would only need to decide whether its worth to keep upgrading old ships around for longer than a certain amount of time (say past 200 years or so).

New designs will probably offer different versatility yes, but Discovery was also retrofitted with 32nd century technology and brought up their standards.... nearly 1000 years of technological and scientific evolution... well, technically about 800 to be precise because it seems technology just 'stopped' when the Burn occurred (which is ridiculous when you think about what was left of the Federation and just how much of it was left 'unused').

Or its just Starfleet's policy to keep using older ships for about 200 years before completely removing them from active service.

So it gets to a point where a ship just isn't worth refitting/upgrading, however for Colony defense, cargo, Science, etc. the ship would be still usefull, so its given to them. Now some ships are just worn down and not good for anything, and are scrapped.

Perhaps, but I don't think the Trek writers fully thought things through on some things.
Why put ships into the scrapyard?
Given how the Federation operates, EVERYTHING would be salvaged... aka, old ships would be decomposed into base elements and reconstituted into new ones, or they'd be returned into the environment in useful form... heck we can already do so (but just don't do it due to the kind of system we live in which results in less than 10% of stuff we throw out to be recycled - not because it cannot be [because both plastic, and things like old wind turbines, or old solar panels, etc. CAN all be recycled - and not just talking about basics... talking about actual decomposing of matter into base form and reconstituting it into something else).

I mean for a collection of societies which is concerned about health and safety, it wouldn't make sense to leave stuff in the scrapyard just lying around doing nothing. Its a stupid waste of overall resources (yes, even in space).
 
Instead of putting ships in ScrapYards, civilians should be able to get ahold of old StarShip hulls and refit them with civilian level parts to form their own small companies / crews to do civilian Contractor like Stuff.

Privatized StarFleet.

No need to waste precious resources salvaging when UFP citizens can make use of legacy / old ships and retro-fit them.
 
As a person who worked on Jet engines, and quality assurance and testing in said systems, Parts Do wear down with use.

Lets take the Jet engine, a major part is the compressor blade rotor, now this whole assembly is made of the strongest titanium alloy, the rotor costs 100,000$ Alone. But in the air it ingests is dust, sand, occasional wrench, and it wears down, just look at the grand canyon and waters effects.
So it has a numbers of Hours on it, If I remember it was 2000 hours, with a few hundred hours between inspections. So after 2000 hours, it would be sent back to depot/manufacture for refurbishment, usually replacing 80% of the blades.

So the thinking that any alloy, material doesn't wear out is pretty much stupid.. Agreed with today's technology, maybe future tech can protect it better, but even then it would require maintenance. Even the toughest material degrades.

Even the example of 1000 year old Disco had the Dot's to due routine maintenance, and it was just sitting in a nebula, so it would have infinite fuel with all the hydrogen it wanted. So it had enough power to run minimal shields to protect against dust etc. Now if it was running at warp for those years, then Yes, it would be broken down heap.

Yes as I said, you can infinatly refit ships, but as said, even with infinite energy, it still takes that energy to rebuild it, and how much TIME it takes, Say 6 months to refit, 3 months to build a new ship, since you have to Disassemble said old ship. and the usually thing of wanting new stuff.
 
As a person who worked on Jet engines, and quality assurance and testing in said systems, Parts Do wear down with use.

Lets take the Jet engine, a major part is the compressor blade rotor, now this whole assembly is made of the strongest titanium alloy, the rotor costs 100,000$ Alone. But in the air it ingests is dust, sand, occasional wrench, and it wears down, just look at the grand canyon and waters effects.
So it has a numbers of Hours on it, If I remember it was 2000 hours, with a few hundred hours between inspections. So after 2000 hours, it would be sent back to depot/manufacture for refurbishment, usually replacing 80% of the blades.

So the thinking that any alloy, material doesn't wear out is pretty much stupid.. Agreed with today's technology, maybe future tech can protect it better, but even then it would require maintenance. Even the toughest material degrades.

Even the example of 1000 year old Disco had the Dot's to due routine maintenance, and it was just sitting in a nebula, so it would have infinite fuel with all the hydrogen it wanted. So it had enough power to run minimal shields to protect against dust etc. Now if it was running at warp for those years, then Yes, it would be broken down heap.

Yes as I said, you can infinatly refit ships, but as said, even with infinite energy, it still takes that energy to rebuild it, and how much TIME it takes, Say 6 months to refit, 3 months to build a new ship, since you have to Disassemble said old ship. and the usually thing of wanting new stuff.
That's why I'm always "Skeptical" of Deks prediction, there are alot of factors that he isn't accounting for and just expects everything to be automatically solved because there are more alien races contributing ideas or Super Computers and AI figuring things out for you.

Reality isn't quite so simple. Even without a Money Based System, there are always other limiting factors beyond just Energy & Raw Material / Matter Requirements.
 
I don't see why each species would have their own fleets sitting there (would make for incredibly boring posting). Maybe in general vicinity so they could get back quickly in an event of an emergency, but realistically, each member species solar system would have to have large compliment of automated defenses coupled with armed starbases... or better yes, a Dyson Swarm (would basically be impenetrable with that).

One potential problem with automated defenses (especially advanced ones) is, what happens if there's a schism in the government and the rival faction gains control of them? This is basically what happened with the Star League in the opening of the war that led to the alliance falling apart. The SDS was the most advanced technology they had ever created, a true technological marvel, and when Terra fell to a coup and dictatorship that government gained total control of the system. It had already successfully decoyed much of the SLDF away from Terran space to deal with a revolt in the Periphery, while also smuggling advanced League tech to the Periphery states so they could keep the SLDF occupied. And the gaps in the Terran military were conveniently "shored up" by troops from the Rim Worlds Republic, enabling their control of Terra.

Instead of fighting alongside the SLDF as it was designed to do, the SDS became the main weapon against their fleet and ground forces. And although they eventually won the war and liberated the Hegemony, the SDS kept them on a very slow offensive for more than a decade with grueling, horrific casualties. Frankly the SLDF might not have prevailed at all if they hadn't been able to slap together some makeshift jammers that could disrupt elements of the drone network, and that only worked at the cost of messing with a lot of other systems on the host ships.

There's also the problem, as we've seen multiple times on a series like Trek, that if you make the automation too advanced and useful the society can become dependent on it. What happens when the system breaks and no one living in that society has the knowledge to solve the problem?

Since the Federation doesn't use money, I would imagine that old relatively older designs would find their way to other people - such as colonies and individuals.
The Maquis were using a lot of 30 year old raiders for example.

I admit in my own personal headcanon, I'm more inclined to ignore the no money/capitalism rule. I just find it too problematic in my ways. :D

Though I suppose its possible that the 23rd century ships would have an 'upper usable limit' of 100 odd years (more if completely refitted), and 24th century ships of say 200 years.
As technology advances though, it would be doable to further increase the operational lifespan of the ship in service and still upgrade it with modern technology on a continuous basis. That way, some design changes on the ship itself would become apparent over time, but the underlying basic shape would likely remain the same.

For my part, I don't have a huge issue with successful designs lasting a century or more in service, provided they can be upgraded as needed and it's viable to do so. We already have designs today that can stay in service a couple of decades, sometimes half a century.

This is one thing I never agreed with on Trek.
In the real world, thing fall apart usually because we DESIGN them to do so and promote sales of new items in the long run... even though we CAN design technology which virtually never breaks down and is capable of self-repair or self-maintenance (should it be needed).

Can you give examples of such materials in modern life? I'm genuinely curious because it's an area I'd like to learn more about. :) That being said, I'm not entirely convinced that such flaws (wearing out etc) are solely tied to capitalism. I think to some degree that's just a part of design, although we're always making progress.

In the Federation, the materials in question would be produced synthetically with minimal environmental footprint while having superior properties - for comparison, we designed numerous synthetic materials since 1970-ies that can be produced in sustainable abundance with minimal impact to the environment, and yet, we don't do so mainly because of a system based on profit and cost efficiency (not sustainability, problem solving and technical efficiency).

But how often have we seen cases where essential materials, like dilithium and medicines, aren't simply replicated or otherwise synthesized? Dilithium is frequently mined, even though one could argue that the planets who mine it wouldn't need to use that particular method to do so. Same with a specific planet producing an essential medicine for a plague, which otherwise can't be obtained.

Why put ships into the scrapyard?
Given how the Federation operates, EVERYTHING would be salvaged... aka, old ships would be decomposed into base elements and reconstituted into new ones, or they'd be returned into the environment in useful form... heck we can already do so (but just don't do it due to the kind of system we live in which results in less than 10% of stuff we throw out to be recycled - not because it cannot be [because both plastic, and things like old wind turbines, or old solar panels, etc. CAN all be recycled - and not just talking about basics... talking about actual decomposing of matter into base form and reconstituting it into something else).

I mean for a collection of societies which is concerned about health and safety, it wouldn't make sense to leave stuff in the scrapyard just lying around doing nothing. Its a stupid waste of overall resources (yes, even in space).

I'd say it kind of varies, as I agree with you about this form of scrapping/recycling raw materials while also feeling it can be useful to have intact ships that can be reactivated at a moment's notice, even if they're older designs.
 
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