I thought that replicators needed matter,even if rearranged at the atomic, not quark level. Maybe Fed headquarters is energy limited so replication is always atomic level?
Spoilers ST Discovery - Starships and Technology Season Three SPOILER Discussion
- Thread starter Mark_Nguyen
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I've generally been under the assumption that they require specific matter patterns to convert, just like the transporter needs such a pattern to recreate a physical object. This would be consistent with ideas like having replicator "rations" as seen on VOY and the fact that some replicated products seem to feel inferior in some ways to consumers, even if they're generally very good copies of the product. Paris complained in "Caretaker" that even with 14 varieties, the replicators apparently made sucky plain tomato soup.
It seems that even on TNG, quite a few of the staff hated the concept of having replicators because they felt it made creation too easy and the items appropriately less valuable. With replicator technology, nothing is arguably unique as long as you have the molecular pattern to create it.
It likely depends on the Federation lack of resources (aka, ships) after the Burn.
To be fair however, this would not be a massive undertaking... you just need to send a few ships (maybe 2 at most), each of which would deploy an assortment of self-replicating automated bots with tractor beams which would travel the TW conduits themselves and clear the debris inside by harvesting them for raw material which can be used to make more autonomous self-replicating bots which can also fully explore the conduits and deliver excess raw material near SF HQ for construction of new ships - the ships which left automated bots to TW conduit cleanup duty can then depart on other SF missions.
This is actually such a no-brainer to the point where its ridiculously simple.
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Interesting how Vance's description of the replicator fits the Tech Manual more than the TNG season 1 descriptions, as well as some in Voyager. It's also interesting Osyrra doesn't seem to have familiarity with replicators despite professing greater technical sophistication. That sophistication is backed up by Book's subspace amplifier, and Osyra's scientist being able to do a simple DNA reconstruction when the Federation can't.
In TNG and VOY, replicators are explicitly energy to matter (TNG), matter to energy (VOY), using transporter patterns (TNG). That should mean they can create matter from scratch, such as when Thomas Riker is created (giving us two beamed Rikers from one source Riker) and such as when they make a new Picard body from his pattern, but need his energy for his mind, or to make him alive. That whole no replicating life thing.
Vance in DIS says replicators are low resolution, atomic level (explicitly), matter recyclers as shown with, "it's made of our shit, you know?"
Personally I like to think the DIS replicators might be a resource optimized variant for the Peak Dilithium period. Alternatively, the instances of transporters and replicators making things in the TNG period do all come down to feed stock materials with no alchemy. Transporters are perfect resolution, and replicators (and pre-ENT transporters) are low resolution. Except it doesn't fit.
In Voyager, Chakotay replicates Janeway a gold watch as a gift. Months later he gives it to her and she says to dereplicate it for the power. If we were dealing with a matter reorganizer there would be no power to recover. Breaking down the item would cost energy and return gold (plus other materials) nothing more. Harvesting energy from the process also implies a sub-atomic scale of manufacturing.
Substantially I think we are dealing with the same system applied differently. Transporters in TNG aren't scanning a person, vaporizing the person, and recreating them from fresh energy at the destination. ENT shows us the matter is actually being converted into some sort of subspace state of being, and that state fades away at the destination if working correctly. The scanning, storing, energy to matter, matter to energy stuff are layers added later, but not the primary mechanism.
At its basis the transporter, and therefore replicator, is a non-alchemical matter shuffler, with side abilities to make forms from memory and atoms from scratch.
Its also possible that energy to matter replicators are reserved (post Burn) for planetary systems that have large amounts of energy (this is where a Dyson Swarm would be excessively useful - just imagine a single solar collector the size of 10km with multiple industrial grade replicators networked across the entire surface area along with sensors, pattern buffers and even impulse engines and field generators - it would be child's play for Federation technology in late 24th century [nevermind 32nd century]... and a Dyson Swarm would have these massive collectors self-replicating themselves in the millions - a single 10 km solar collector with all the technology would be enough to replicate everything you need from scratch in a very small amount of time... multiple ships probably... just 10 to 20 of those can easily create whole fleets of ships - thousands of collectors or millions can do ridiculously more).
Wasted potential.
At any rate, its possible that Federation HQ like you said is using a matter to matter conversion version of replicators because they need to ration their energy supply... whereas planetary systems COULD easily use energy to matter and mater to energy conversion replicators (but obviously of modern 32nd century design).
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https://twitter.com/startrekcbs/status/1346562112580067328?s=21
32nd century Starfleet ships, some official views. Dissect away!
Mark
32nd century Starfleet ships, some official views. Dissect away!
Mark
Interesting stuff, though I have to say my thoughts on some of those are kind of... mixed. The Le Guin and the Jubayr look like fairly random, generic shapes without a lot of aesthetically pleasing elements, although maybe there are alternative models with more detail. I admit, some of the starship designs in DIS have suffered a lot of that problematic blandness for me. It's the same reason I dislike most of the Klingon designs, which are both fairly bland and don't seem to mesh with the existing fleet aesthetics.
YMMV of course.
YMMV of course.
I think “mixed” is the operative word here. While we are dealing with centuries of different designs, in previous Trek shows there was a common design language that we could look at and conclude that ships of a given race or organization had a specific "look" that would be easily identifiable. In either of Discovery's eras, you could argue that there was very little of this going around beyond general collections of shapes to discern saucers, nacelles or hulls. There is nothing to suggest common construction techniques, schools of FTL theories applied, etc. Hell, it's rare for the fonts to be uniformly applied.
This is even more pronounced in these 32nd century examples. Aside from the Voyager-J and the "new Constitution class", few of these designs have anything in common with each other, let alone anything that could have been derived from the Starfleet of old. While a lot of these ships are very pretty, and while is HAS been 800+ years beyond anything we know, IMO it would have been a better choice to get something identifiable out there that people can look at and say "yeah, that's Starfleet".
Mark
This is even more pronounced in these 32nd century examples. Aside from the Voyager-J and the "new Constitution class", few of these designs have anything in common with each other, let alone anything that could have been derived from the Starfleet of old. While a lot of these ships are very pretty, and while is HAS been 800+ years beyond anything we know, IMO it would have been a better choice to get something identifiable out there that people can look at and say "yeah, that's Starfleet".
Mark
Agreed. I said in the other thread that form tends to follow function, and it would be nice to see some of that reflected. I mean, despite some of my issues with ENT's designs, at least their Klingon vessels looked like they were logical ancestors of some of the later ones. I'd personally say I don't like the ENT BOP as much, because I think looks a tad too similar to the familiar one from later shows. But it does still look like a coherent and functional design regardless, even if I find the aesthetics too close personally.
I have the same issue with the idea of separate nacelles on some designs. It's not that it can't be potentially cool, but there's no established context for why it's presumably a "better" arrangement and it looks weird in that way (at least to me).
And I do like the idea that different races within the Federation (pre-Burn) could have had their own fleet units and design aesthetics, and I admit it would have been cool to see elements of that in the other series. But even then, it naturally helps to have a distinct commonality to tie them together as Federation units, like how the Vulcans for example have a number of ringed designs.
But it does still look like a coherent and functional design regardless, even if I find the aesthetics too close personally. I have the same issue with the idea of separate nacelles on some designs. It's not that it can't be potentially cool, but there's no established context for why it's presumably a "better" arrangement and it looks weird in that way (at least to me).
And I do like the idea that different races within the Federation (pre-Burn) could have had their own fleet units and design aesthetics, and I admit it would have been cool to see elements of that in the other series. But even then, it naturally helps to have a distinct commonality to tie them together as Federation units, like how the Vulcans for example have a number of ringed designs.
You can only get Quark level at the DS9 bar.
Angelou class is the most intriguing to me. Looks like an arcology combined with a starship.
Overall, interesting designs, if a bit organic looking.
The finale! So... That elevator scene...
- I guess the producers heard our criticisms of the convoluted turbolifts and replaced with an ENTIRELY DIFFERENT convoluted system. Complete with self-acutalizing guideposts that don't seem needed in some lift cars' paths, and an even larger internal space to flit about in!
- The computer core room seems to be a redress of the SFHQ set, but perhaps more importantly could this be an example of adding a whole other room to Discovery that wasn't there before? There's certainly enough space for it!
- And are we obliquely confirming that the TARDIS-like tech from the ENT Temporal Cold War capsule is not temporaly-based, and therefore will allow Discovery and any 32nd century ship to have cavernous spaces inside?
All the teach this season is at once fascinating and frustrating. So much of it is far out of what we know to be feasible in this universe, and while it doesn't at all preclude being possible, it's been presented as so much hand-waving magic so it's tough to even characterize how it works.
More to come...
Mark
- I guess the producers heard our criticisms of the convoluted turbolifts and replaced with an ENTIRELY DIFFERENT convoluted system. Complete with self-acutalizing guideposts that don't seem needed in some lift cars' paths, and an even larger internal space to flit about in!
- The computer core room seems to be a redress of the SFHQ set, but perhaps more importantly could this be an example of adding a whole other room to Discovery that wasn't there before? There's certainly enough space for it!
- And are we obliquely confirming that the TARDIS-like tech from the ENT Temporal Cold War capsule is not temporaly-based, and therefore will allow Discovery and any 32nd century ship to have cavernous spaces inside?
All the teach this season is at once fascinating and frustrating. So much of it is far out of what we know to be feasible in this universe, and while it doesn't at all preclude being possible, it's been presented as so much hand-waving magic so it's tough to even characterize how it works.
More to come...
Mark
When you look closely, you can make out the location of its bridge.
Is it cost effective to make a computer core set which might be sparsely used?
At least, and thankfully enough, it was budgetarily possible to bring back Reno, Nilsson, the Trill Prez and even Sahil for their twelve seconds of random glory...
...Once again, it seems Reno just tinkers, despite her skill and rank. (Speaking of which, how does that work? Why does only Burnham get to wear pips when everybody else has plain chevrons on their plate? Or is Burnham a four-star Admiral now?)
Also, how did Sahil get there? He's from 50k ly away. If he traveled on the Discovery, where was Burnham at the time? Taking time off with mom, perhaps? Or did Sahil immediately after the prologue to "Far From Home" decide it would be worth the risk to start heading Earthward, through deadly transwarp tunnels and whatnot?
A storytelling shortcoming, but one manifesting through tech: as usual, everybody else has to be artificially weakened to allow Burnham to shine, but never before to the extent of the finale. Zora is the ship: how come she can't take herself back? There were DOTs to burn, and many could have preceded Osyraa to key locations from which to restore control or disrupt Chain operations. They have to be networked, too, so Zora has more access than just those roaming points, but it appears to come to nothing.
And Vance has an armada, but it can't make a dent in the single ship that's hurting his base shields. How about, err, blowing off the nacelles? Seems like a harmless little trick.
And then he sends basically the whole armada to chase the Viridian. What happened to being worried about leaving home base vulnerable? You know, the base with no shields? The base that quite literally sustains itself on the presence of ships?
What was going on during the fight at the data core? Burnham and Osyraa fire their carbines at each other point blank, and all we get is a fancy whitish effect, as if the guns hit a forcefield or whatnot. The effect reappears a few times. Is the location somehow particularly suited for boss fights, with raygun-disrupting features? Is Zora messing with the fight? Are the guns malfunctioning? And what makes Osyraa think that sinking Burnham in a keyboard will conclude the fight?
No contradictions or impossibilities there, just oddities. Much like the Kelpien shipwrights combining Ba'ul angularity with circles and racetracks for the Khi'eth, to a rather disquieting end result. (The Alice-category impossibilities come with the turbollift visuals and the warp core ejection through eighteen decks, but those were already covered above... Weird that the futuro-refit would introduce all-new turbolift tech when everybody has transporters, though. But perhaps the transporter badges have a range limit of a few hundred kilometers, so the turbolifts are necessary for reaching the really distant parts of the ship...?)
An enjoyable romp in any case, and had this been the final season, not a bad way to finish it off, either. But since there is more to come, it seems it won't be half bad.
Timo Saloniemi
...Once again, it seems Reno just tinkers, despite her skill and rank. (Speaking of which, how does that work? Why does only Burnham get to wear pips when everybody else has plain chevrons on their plate? Or is Burnham a four-star Admiral now?)
Also, how did Sahil get there? He's from 50k ly away. If he traveled on the Discovery, where was Burnham at the time? Taking time off with mom, perhaps? Or did Sahil immediately after the prologue to "Far From Home" decide it would be worth the risk to start heading Earthward, through deadly transwarp tunnels and whatnot?
A storytelling shortcoming, but one manifesting through tech: as usual, everybody else has to be artificially weakened to allow Burnham to shine, but never before to the extent of the finale. Zora is the ship: how come she can't take herself back? There were DOTs to burn, and many could have preceded Osyraa to key locations from which to restore control or disrupt Chain operations. They have to be networked, too, so Zora has more access than just those roaming points, but it appears to come to nothing.
And Vance has an armada, but it can't make a dent in the single ship that's hurting his base shields. How about, err, blowing off the nacelles? Seems like a harmless little trick.
And then he sends basically the whole armada to chase the Viridian. What happened to being worried about leaving home base vulnerable? You know, the base with no shields? The base that quite literally sustains itself on the presence of ships?
What was going on during the fight at the data core? Burnham and Osyraa fire their carbines at each other point blank, and all we get is a fancy whitish effect, as if the guns hit a forcefield or whatnot. The effect reappears a few times. Is the location somehow particularly suited for boss fights, with raygun-disrupting features? Is Zora messing with the fight? Are the guns malfunctioning? And what makes Osyraa think that sinking Burnham in a keyboard will conclude the fight?
No contradictions or impossibilities there, just oddities. Much like the Kelpien shipwrights combining Ba'ul angularity with circles and racetracks for the Khi'eth, to a rather disquieting end result. (The Alice-category impossibilities come with the turbollift visuals and the warp core ejection through eighteen decks, but those were already covered above... Weird that the futuro-refit would introduce all-new turbolift tech when everybody has transporters, though. But perhaps the transporter badges have a range limit of a few hundred kilometers, so the turbolifts are necessary for reaching the really distant parts of the ship...?)
An enjoyable romp in any case, and had this been the final season, not a bad way to finish it off, either. But since there is more to come, it seems it won't be half bad.
Timo Saloniemi
Presumably, Sahil was picked up at some point after "Die Trying", or after the Viridian battle once the Su'Kal risk factor was out of the way.
As Discovery novels cannot really take place during the course of the series, having a Sahil novel focused on his work with the couriers, undermining the Chain, and then getting into Starfleet, would make great material.
As Discovery novels cannot really take place during the course of the series, having a Sahil novel focused on his work with the couriers, undermining the Chain, and then getting into Starfleet, would make great material.
Seeing him appeared to be quite a surprise for Burnham, though, which is what makes one wonder here, since it's Burnham who would be his likeliest ticket to SF HQ.
At which points of the story would Burnham be separated from the spore drive? Before joining with the rest of the heroes, but that's no help in getting Sahil to HQ. During her unauthorized missions, but Saru and his ship would be busy or grounded during those. So most probably after the main events of the concluding trilogy, and before this closing montage of characters: it doesn't take more than a few hours, and Burnham would be due more than that in terms of shore leave. In the allotted time, Saru apparently reached Kaminar by conventional means, and we know from the fleet-sent-to-Kaminar plot complication that the trip isn't completely trivial. Tilly could well have taken the ship for a spin in that time.
Timo Saloniemi
Back to Replicators for a moment,
Maybe its at the Atom scale because storing patterns at the quantum level, like a transporter, requires ALOT of memory.. I vaguely remember a DS9 episode where they had to store the patterns of the crew in the core and it took up the entire core!
An atomic pattern for lets say an apple would fit on the vertiable thumb drive..
Maybe its at the Atom scale because storing patterns at the quantum level, like a transporter, requires ALOT of memory.. I vaguely remember a DS9 episode where they had to store the patterns of the crew in the core and it took up the entire core!
An atomic pattern for lets say an apple would fit on the vertiable thumb drive..
The DS9 episode "Our Man Bashir" never made much sense: those hero patterns were previously effortlessly stored inside the tiny machinery of a runabout, and now the vast station is having trouble with them? They never really explained why this should be - there was no mention of compatibility problems, say. But what the episode does suggest is that normal transport involves no computing feats and no memory, and the use of such resources is the sign of abnormal transport...
Timo Saloniemi
Timo Saloniemi
...Right after Vance tells his team to "hit them harder", a vast vessel emerges from behind the lower part of the HQ station. Did we see that flat, all-saucer design before?
Also, it would be fun to get a closer look at the midget shuttles/fighters/whatnot that take part in the parade formation in the end. And at the Razors, but I gather they were kept off focus for a reason.
Why is there a second Voyager name-drop when the heroes decide to eject the core? Several Starfleet ships are pursuing. How does Burnham know which one is at the lead? Why should that matter when all are within the blast radius anyway?
More questions upcoming with the next rewatch, scheduled for... Hmm, perhaps a couple of hours from now.
Timo Saloniemi
Also, it would be fun to get a closer look at the midget shuttles/fighters/whatnot that take part in the parade formation in the end. And at the Razors, but I gather they were kept off focus for a reason.
Why is there a second Voyager name-drop when the heroes decide to eject the core? Several Starfleet ships are pursuing. How does Burnham know which one is at the lead? Why should that matter when all are within the blast radius anyway?
More questions upcoming with the next rewatch, scheduled for... Hmm, perhaps a couple of hours from now.
Timo Saloniemi
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