Nemesis aka The lousiest villain ever!!!

[Discofan]

He has a precise mission to accomplish: Go and destroy the earth. And what does he do? All he does is fart around the whole movie... I mean with villains like that, who needs good guys?

As for the rest, it's as if it was written by two (or more) writers who didn't read each other's notes. I mean the head of the Romulan rogues addresses Shinzon: "We went along with your assassination of the senate." What? It's a Romulan senator that assassinated the senate, not Shinzon. He may have provided the weapon but that's a far cry for doing it himself!

As for the Romulan woman (the one that wanted to sleep with Shinzon), she starts talking about sins!!! what? I mean they just assassinated the Senate, that seems sinful plenty to me.

Everything they do in that movie is just stupid! Including Data. I mean why would he deactivate his brother? Because he was programmed to spy on them? So what? Why wasn't Data deactivated when he tried to melt Geordi's brain? Looks like Data believes in double standard among robots...

Anyway, when Data puts the beaming thing on Picard they were seconds away from destroying all the crew on Enterprise and all that Picard was doing is staring in front of him not moving! Hello!!! You have a mission!! Snap out of it already!! Just one question: Why couldn't he have two of these tags?

Shinzon was able to beam Picard from his ship in spite of every safeguard... So why couldn't he have done it a second time after Picard escaped?

Beverly says that the particles destroy life..." at the subatomic level"!!! There's no such thing as life at the subatomic level!!! Life only exists at the cellular level... at least. Let's how the hell would that work. Does the particle say to itself let's see, this proton belongs to a living cell so I am destroying it, that one doesn't so I'll leave it alone!!!

B4 has to be the stupidest robot ever!! What was Soong trying to make? A toaster? And he decided to give it a humanoid form...

As for Data, he can't whistle (as was recounted by Riker) but he can play the violin like a virtuoso... I am sorry but the only people who can't whistle are the ones that are tone-deaf... And these can't play the violin!!!! I mean you can play the piano if you are deaf (even) because there are keys (although your playing will not be very good). But on a violin, you need to determine precisely where to put your finger... BY EAR!!!

Anyway... whatever!!

 

[DarKush]

I have issues with Shinzon's motivation and rationale to destroy Earth instead of Romulus, but he needed Picard's blood to survive so that's one reason he dawdled. It's even mentioned in the film that he's wasting time, but to be fair, I think his fascination and perhaps his envy and hatred for Picard made sense in the film. The reason Shinzon was created was simply to mimic Picard and Jean-Luc lived a life denied Shinzon and even if the Romulans had been successful with putting him in Picard's place, he still would've been an echo, living in a greater man's boots, and the galling part had to be that they were the same man-genetically-but Shinzon could never be as great or respected as Picard.

He didn't even see his becoming Praetor as a greater accomplishment because of his hatred of the Romulus. It's not something he really wanted, or believed it would make him greater than Picard. It's my understanding-not well explained in the film-that the senator was in league with the Remans and the Romulan military to take out the Senate. Why the traitorous Romulan officers would agree to Shinzon becoming Praetor made no sense, and wasn't explained. I couldn't see the average Romulan citizen or soldier allowing a human or Reman as their new leader. Though I can't say if that news was widespread. I can surmise that the Romulans thought Shinzon would be a figurehead, that they would hide behind him and use him to wipe out Earth so he/the Remans get the blame for that genocide, and then betray him after the Federation had been conquered.

As for Donatra expressing disgust at the idea of wiping out Earth, as opposed to the Romulan Senate, I see her viewing many people on Earth as innocent whereas she might not have felt that way about Romulan Senators. They were already part of the game, in a way billions of Earth denizens were not, and further, Donatra might have felt the honorable way was to defeat Earth/Federation in battle (and I liked that they did harken back to the TOS Romulans with her character).

Deactivating B4 did make sense. He was too unpredictable and dangerous to keep conscious. As for the other gripes you had with the film, I got nothing.

 

[Vger23]

I don't mind Shinzon...I think he's completely unhinged. His mental health and stability is gone.

His unpredictability is a result of this....as is his extreme danger as an adversary.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Shinzon faked Robert and Rene's deaths, to get their blood.

 

[Timo]

He has a precise mission to accomplish: Go and destroy the earth. And what does he do? All he does is fart around the whole movie... I mean with villains like that, who needs good guys?

Umm, Shinzon has no mission dictated on him that we'd know of. He may choose to attack Earth, or then not. He probably isn't quite sure himself.

The fault in the character of Shinzon is not in that he'd act contrary to his aims. It's that he has no known aims. Which wouldn't be so damning if he at least managed to be a nice mirror or contrast study on the man he was cloned from - but that doesn't happen in the movie, either.

Shinzon was able to beam Picard from his ship in spite of every safeguard... So why couldn't he have done it a second time after Picard escaped?

Because the ship was no longer there?

The one safeguard that would help is shields. Picard had those down when first captured; he wouldn't make that mistake again.

Beverly says that the particles destroy life..." at the subatomic level"!!! There's no such thing as life at the subatomic level!!! Life only exists at the cellular level... at least. Let's how the hell would that work.

We don't know, but our characters do. Quite a few episodes have made mention of life going deeper than molecules. Future science simply has uncovered some deeper truths - perhaps even helping create a distinction between animate and inanimate matter, even when today's science can see none.

As for Data, he can't whistle (as was recounted by Riker) but he can play the violin like a virtuoso... I am sorry but the only people who can't whistle are the ones that are tone-deaf... And these can't play the violin!!!! I mean you can play the piano if you are deaf (even) because there are keys (although your playing will not be very good). But on a violin, you need to determine precisely where to put your finger... BY EAR!!!

Heh... Bullshit. I can play the violin just fine. Or sing well enough to satisfy the jury or the audiences at the recitals. But I can't whistle, and apparently can't learn.

(There's another old superstition about whistling skills that I won't touch on here. You can draw your own conclusions.)

Timo Saloniemi

 

[DonIago]

I would have expected Shinzon's primary goal to be survival, and to that end I wonder why he didn't just try explaining his situation to Picard and asking for mercy.

I also don't think attacking Earth or the E-E made much sense in the context of the story. Or rather, attacking the E-E may have made sense if the goal was to get Picard's blood, but...

...you know what? I'll just leave it, IMO, Shinzon's priorities are a total mess. Maybe he was a nutcase from the get-go.

 

[Discofan]

I would have expected Shinzon's primary goal to be survival, and to that end I wonder why he didn't just try explaining his situation to Picard and asking for mercy.

I also don't think attacking Earth or the E-E made much sense in the context of the story. Or rather, attacking the E-E may have made sense if the goal was to get Picard's blood, but...

...you know what? I'll just leave it, IMO, Shinzon's priorities are a total mess. Maybe he was a nutcase from the get-go.

A nutcase alright and some lousy villain, which was my point.

 

[Discofan]

...

Because the ship was no longer there?

The one safeguard that would help is shields. Picard had those down when first captured; he wouldn't make that mistake again.

Shinzon was able to send his hologram through those "shields". Picard was beamed through the shields, btw.

We don't know, but our characters do. Quite a few episodes have made mention of life going deeper than molecules. Future science simply has uncovered some deeper truths - perhaps even helping create a distinction between animate and inanimate matter, even when today's science can see none.

Superstitious nonsense. Life only exits at the cellular level, below that all you have are molecules, which are not alive by anybody's definition.

Heh... Bullshit. I can play the violin just fine. Or sing well enough to satisfy the jury or the audiences at the recitals. But I can't whistle, and apparently can't learn.

(There's another old superstition about whistling skills that I won't touch on here. You can draw your own conclusions.)

Timo Saloniemi

I can do both quite well if I do say so myself and I can tell that they are linked, intimately. What could prevent you from whistling? Did you have some kind of lip accident?

 

[Timo]

Shinzon was able to send his hologram through those "shields". Picard was beamed through the shields, btw.

Never through his own shields. And potentially never through Shinzon's, either, since if he could, he would no doubt have beamed directly to the Chamber of Evil rather than to a corridor far away where he first has to fight his way through some henchmen. Possibly Shinzon's shields being 70% up meant 30% of his ship was unprotected, much like Picard's ventral shields going down allowed the Viceroy to board the E-E?

Superstitious nonsense. Life only exits at the cellular level, below that all you have are molecules, which are not alive by anybody's definition.

Umm, viruses are sub-cellular life by many definitions. But "superstitious nonsense" is just science by another name: there's absolutely nothing to stop science from discovering sub-atomic life in the future, assuming it exists. And the very fact that science can't see there yet allows for that possibility.

I can do both quite well if I do say so myself and I can tell that they are linked, intimately.

How could you? You clearly have no experience on being tone deaf.

Such a connection sounds absurd in any case. Intuitively, tone deaf people would simply be able to whistle off tune, just like they sing off tune, while Data and I can't produce the sound in the first place.

What could prevent you from whistling? Did you have some kind of lip accident?

Naah, there's no obvious physiological showstopper. It might be something similar to how some people can't roll their tongues while others can turn theirs into amazing sinusoidal patterns - but modern medicine can't be bothered to figure out such things and I certainly have no diagnosis on it. Nor do I know any statistics. But I do have plenty of experience on tone deaf people whistling!

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Discofan]

...
Umm, viruses are sub-cellular life by many definitions. But "superstitious nonsense" is just science by another name: there's absolutely nothing to stop science from discovering sub-atomic life in the future, assuming it exists. And the very fact that science can't see there yet allows for that possibility.

....

Timo Saloniemi

Quite the contrary, most qualified people don't consider that viruses fulfill the requirements to be called alive.

As for "sub-atomic life", it is to use your own terminology... bullshit.



Btw, Data could whistle part of the tune, enough to be identified as "Pop Goes The Weasel", he just couldn't get one note right, which means that he was tone-deaf, at least partially. Some people can't hear certain frequencies, but if it was the case then he could definitely not have played the violin.

 

[Timo]

So were bacteria before they no longer were. Sure, Trek isn't science - but it does a pretty good job at being science fiction. And discoveries like that would be nicely analogous to ones that have been made so far.

And while "most" might have ideas about viruses, "some" still consider them life, defeating the "anybody" in the argument. There's no particularly workable definition of life, and no consensus on one - yet the ones Trek uses would certainly tend towards admitting viruses to the club, and would be the ones relevant here.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Discofan]

... "some" still consider them life, defeating the "anybody" in the argument. There's no particularly workable definition of life, and no consensus on one - yet the ones Trek uses would certainly tend towards admitting viruses to the club, and would be the ones relevant here.

Timo Saloniemi

yeah, "some" as you say, just as "some" think that the earth is flat; there's even a forum for flat-earthers, I've been there, it's quite funny actually. Some of these guys sound like they got an education, which makes me wonder.

 

[Timo]

It's a bit different, debating facts and debating definitions. Data is supposedly alive, so most certainly COVID-19 is as well. But if they aren't, then odds are that you aren't alive, either.

Really, this is a pointless argument. Trek is all about exotic life. You can't rule out the subatomic if you are willing to accept the noncorporeal. And at some point, you just have to stop hurting yourself with watching Trek.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Discofan]

It's a bit different, debating facts and debating definitions. Data is supposedly alive, so most certainly COVID-19 is as well. But if they aren't, then odds are that you aren't alive, either.

Really, this is a pointless argument. Trek is all about exotic life. You can't rule out the subatomic if you are willing to accept the noncorporeal. And at some point, you just have to stop hurting yourself with watching Trek.

Timo Saloniemi

You can watch a fiction without losing sight of the fact that it is a fiction and nothing more.

 

[Kor]

I also disagree about only tone-deaf people not being able to whistle. I am a musician myself and I can sing decently at a non-professional level. But I can't whistle worth beans because I never learned the mechanics of physically using my lips and breath in the manner required.

Kor

 

[Timo]

You can watch a fiction without losing sight of the fact that it is a fiction and nothing more.

...But can you? Apparently it is a big deal to you that subatomic life is fiction so far, that is, it doesn't meet the criteria of being real, at least not yet. How come this is a problem, something that counts against Nemesis somehow, when warp drive or Romulans aren't?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Discofan]

I also disagree about only tone-deaf people not being able to whistle. I am a musician myself and I can sing decently at a non-professional level. But I can't whistle worth beans because I never learned the mechanics of physically using my lips and breath in the manner required.

Kor

Be that as it may if you watch the episode you'll see that Data can whistle the beginning of the tune but that there is one note that seems to cause him a problem and that's why my first thought was that he had trouble hearing some frequencies.

 

[Discofan]

...But can you? Apparently it is a big deal to you that subatomic life is fiction so far, that is, it doesn't meet the criteria of being real, at least not yet. How come this is a problem, something that counts against Nemesis somehow, when warp drive or Romulans aren't?

Timo Saloniemi

Sorry but it's you that seems to have a problem as you are willing to make the most unlikely assumptions to justify what is said in the series. I don't know about warp drive, I mean it seems unlikely the way it is described but maybe there is a way to achieve it. The Romulans seem even more unlikely but what do we know about extraterrestrial life, maybe the humanoid form is more likely than it seems and there are humanoids on all habitable planets of the galaxy... Again, very unlikely but possible. "Sub-atomic" life? I am sorry but that one breaks the believability meter!!!

 

[Smellmet]

He has a precise mission to accomplish: Go and destroy the earth. And what does he do? All he does is fart around the whole movie... I mean with villains like that, who needs good guys?

As for the rest, it's as if it was written by two (or more) writers who didn't read each other's notes. I mean the head of the Romulan rogues addresses Shinzon: "We went along with your assassination of the senate." What? It's a Romulan senator that assassinated the senate, not Shinzon. He may have provided the weapon but that's a far cry for doing it himself!

As for the Romulan woman (the one that wanted to sleep with Shinzon), she starts talking about sins!!! what? I mean they just assassinated the Senate, that seems sinful plenty to me.

Everything they do in that movie is just stupid! Including Data. I mean why would he deactivate his brother? Because he was programmed to spy on them? So what? Why wasn't Data deactivated when he tried to melt Geordi's brain? Looks like Data believes in double standard among robots...

Anyway, when Data puts the beaming thing on Picard they were seconds away from destroying all the crew on Enterprise and all that Picard was doing is staring in front of him not moving! Hello!!! You have a mission!! Snap out of it already!! Just one question: Why couldn't he have two of these tags?

Shinzon was able to beam Picard from his ship in spite of every safeguard... So why couldn't he have done it a second time after Picard escaped?

Beverly says that the particles destroy life..." at the subatomic level"!!! There's no such thing as life at the subatomic level!!! Life only exists at the cellular level... at least. Let's how the hell would that work. Does the particle say to itself let's see, this proton belongs to a living cell so I am destroying it, that one doesn't so I'll leave it alone!!!

B4 has to be the stupidest robot ever!! What was Soong trying to make? A toaster? And he decided to give it a humanoid form...

As for Data, he can't whistle (as was recounted by Riker) but he can play the violin like a virtuoso... I am sorry but the only people who can't whistle are the ones that are tone-deaf... And these can't play the violin!!!! I mean you can play the piano if you are deaf (even) because there are keys (although your playing will not be very good). But on a violin, you need to determine precisely where to put your finger... BY EAR!!!

Anyway... whatever!!

You've missed a doozy - on the stairs scene it's made clear that the remans don't like light - the entire bridge crew witnessed this, yet when they board the Enterprise why didn't they just TURN THE FUCKING LIGHTS UP instead of putting their crew in danger in a (really crappy) firefight?

Nemesis is a hot bloody mess, it really is. But it I still find it highly entertaining, I think the FX are excellent, and the battle between the E-E and the Scimitar is not only my favourite ship battle in the franchise, but I think it's one of the best space battles period. I would watch it over TFF, INS, GEN, any day of the week, maybe even TVH and FC. It's a 'good bad film' if that makes sense (which it probably doesn't, like half the movie)

 

[PhotoBoy]

Nemesis would have been so much better if they’d had Patrick Stewart also playing Shinzon. I was hoping for a Picard vs Picard showdown like in Diane Diane’s Dark Mirror. Instead we got “oh look Jean-Luc, here’s a picture of you when you were at the academy and you didn’t have hair then either!”

None of this is to knock Tom Hardy though, I heard he was really depressed after Nemesis and blamed himself but I think the fault lay with whoever made the decision to have played Shinzon by a different actor. Everything Hardy has done since has been awesome, so it’s a shame he wasn’t used more effectively on Trek.