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Report: Discovery moving to Netflix

I'm not sure I agree. TWOK was an explicit sequel to a TOS episode, unlike TMP. It certainly pissed the hell out of Roddenberry, but I'm not sure it was all that divisive within fandom.

Well, I didn't say it was. I just said it was a perfect example of the writers and producers saying (literally, this is documented) "we are going to make the film the way we want it, and we don't care what The Fans think...." and the result of that approach is that it's one of the most widely respected and appreciated elements of the entire franchise. So my point is that I believe it's better for the creators to create and let the chips fall where they may. Star Trek producers and studio executives too often go through a checklist of things they think the movie or show needs in order to be loved by fans. And, oftentimes, it shows...and not in a good way. The TNG movies are a perfect example.

But....to the point you are making...it was ABSOLUTELY divisive. There's practically an entire chapter in the Allan Asherman "Making of Star Trek II" book that outlines outrageous fan behavior in negative response to elements contained in the film, not the least of which were death threats levied at the production team if the "rumors about Spock's death are true." There are entire articles written by prominent fans in the "Best of Trek" publications that deride the film for all the same tired reasons you hear people moaning about these days (too much pew pew, Gene's Vision, not enough exploration, not thoughtful enough, etc etc etc). One article that has been burned into my memory was titled "Indiana Jones meets the Son of Skywalker" or some such drivel, and railed on the movie's action, use of the Enterprise as nothing more than a battleship, etc etc etc.
 
Well, I didn't say it was. I just said it was a perfect example of the writers and producers saying (literally, this is documented) "we are going to make the film the way we want it, and we don't care what The Fans think...." and the result of that approach is that it's one of the most widely respected and appreciated elements of the entire franchise. So my point is that I believe it's better for the creators to create and let the chips fall where they may. Star Trek producers and studio executives too often go through a checklist of things they think the movie or show needs in order to be loved by fans. And, oftentimes, it shows...and not in a good way. The TNG movies are a perfect example.

I think TWOK is a good example of how you don't need to be a super-fan in order to write Trek.

That said, personally I've always found the movie a bit underwhelming given the hype. My main issue with it is Khan just isn't...that bright. He's supposed to be agumented to have genius-level intelligence, yet we never really get any idea from the movie that he's particularly above average in terms of his cognition.

But....to the point you are making...it was ABSOLUTELY divisive. There's practically an entire chapter in the Allan Asherman "Making of Star Trek II" book that outlines outrageous fan behavior in negative response to elements contained in the film, not the least of which were death threats levied at the production team if the "rumors about Spock's death are true." There are entire articles written by prominent fans in the "Best of Trek" publications that deride the film for all the same tired reasons you hear people moaning about these days (too much pew pew, Gene's Vision, not enough exploration, not thoughtful enough, etc etc etc). One article that has been burned into my memory was titled "Indiana Jones meets the Son of Skywalker" or some such drivel, and railed on the movie's action, use of the Enterprise as nothing more than a battleship, etc etc etc.

My understanding is a lot of this was drummed up by Roddenberry prior to release, as he was intentionally trying to destroy the movie's reputation because he was sour about not having creative control. It pretty much went away after release though, no?
 
understanding is a lot of this was drummed up by Roddenberry prior to release, as he was intentionally trying to destroy the movie's reputation because he was sour about not having creative control. It pretty much went away after release though, no?
No. It diminished but it was still anger.
 
My understanding is a lot of this was drummed up by Roddenberry prior to release, as he was intentionally trying to destroy the movie's reputation because he was sour about not having creative control. It pretty much went away after release though, no?
TWOK was generally well-received but there were still complaints about the film from some die-hards. I've read some of the Best of Trek books that @Vger23 was talking about, and some of the feedback for the film could be transplanted onto TrekBBS today and it would fit right in.

My parents went to see TWOK in the theater. And my mother didn't like it. She thought it was too violent and she didn't like that Spock died. Even later on, when I became a fan, TWOK was still her least favorite.
 
I disagree, switching to serialization was the shows demise. ST fans are used to episodic, that's what they were expecting. No doubt there were fans of the show that enjoyed it, but good luck on bringing in a new audience during the 3rd season. They wouldn't have gained viewers with this change, but would have lost some.
What I wrote is substantively true: UPN was considering cancelling Enterprise after two seasons. "The Expanse" was part of a Hail Mary on the part of Berman and Braga to convinced them otherwise. Among the change was to deliver a big concept, full season story that directly related to contemporary concerns, which upped the conflict, as well as changing the name of the series from Enterprise to Star Trek: Enterprise. After the end of the third season, UPN again considered cancelling Enterprise. This time, Manny Coto made a number of changes, like filming all digital, but also using mulitiple-episode stories to draw down the costs. Paramount Television (not the same as UPN, even though they were part of the Paramount/CBS/Viacom umbrella) made concessions as well.

So when I say serialization kept Enterprise alive, I am being quite literal.
 
I think Vance is tolerating Burnham's obsession with figuring out what caused The Burn. The Burn to him is like what something that happened in 1900 is to us. He's never known the Federation at its Height. Just the stories. I don't think he sees much of a benefit in the Federation being put back together again, to be honest. The only advantage he might see is strength in numbers against the Emerald Chain. I think this is something that's going to be with Discovery for the rest of the series.
That's true. Vance will have a different sense of urgency with regard to the Burn as Discovery's crew. He may see things more parochially. However, I think that the series needs to establish the answer to the question: does the future need the Federation? The Emerald Chain aside (and given that its supplies of dilithium are running out, it will be entirely neutered at some point), the series hasn't broached the subject of what the future needs, and whether or not the Federation is the solution. I'm sure one reason why the writers won't go down that road is that there is a set of fans who will flip their lids if it is suggested that there could be Star Trek without the Federation. However, I would argue that this has produced an overreaction in which the good of the Federation is taken as self-evident. If I came from 1900, I might logically believe that the Austria-Hungary kept a lot of pesky ethnicities from fighting each other, but I couldn't make the argument in 2020 that it should be rebuilt. Personally, I think the season would benefit (or perhaps would have benefitted) from the revitalization of interstellar politics and cooperation. The best we've gotten is in the visit to Trill, where we are told that the Burn has contributed to social collapse. (Unfortunately, we never see that collapse.)
 
My understanding is a lot of this was drummed up by Roddenberry prior to release, as he was intentionally trying to destroy the movie's reputation because he was sour about not having creative control. It pretty much went away after release though, no?
I believe it was rumoured, but never confirmed.
 
" Soap operas have been serialized since the dawn of TV
They've been serialized since the dawn of Soap Operas on radio. And serialization has been a cornerstone of storytelling probably since we began spinning tales around the fire. Many great works by Dickens and others were serialized in magazines before being collected in to novels.
Soaps have character and story plot arcs, several in play at once. The seeds for future plots are planted as a major arcs comes to an end. I don't think they are "made up on the fly".
 
So when I say serialization kept Enterprise alive, I am being quite literal.
Still don't agree on that. It wasn't because it was episodic that it went downhill in my opinion. Depends on what it was up against. I never actually watched the show on TV myself. I watched the pilot, but that was it, and it had nothing to do with the quality of the show.

Maybe people just weren't ready for a new Trek show.

Serialization works best for shows based on history (loosely) like Vikings or Black Sails, or about events that could occur in real life, Breaking Bad, Boardwalk Empire etc. It works and it's better for those type of shows.

But when we are talking about sci-fi or weird shows like The Outer Limits or Creepshow, it works so much better if it's episodic. You can do so much with it.
 
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Interesting hearing that TWOK met with some really hostile fan response. Today it’s considered by many as Trek’s gold standard. But I guess times change but fans remain fans. No matter what you do, some will love it and others will despise it (and try to burn the whole house down in response).
 
Still don't agree on that. It wasn't because it was episodic that it went downhill in my opinion.
It was part of a larger downward trend in Trek.
You can do so much with it.
You can do a lot with it. But, Trek has done it. And it got to the point that it felt like nothing mattered at the end of the episode. That's why I'm struggling with returning to episodic because I hate the idea that they put a concept in to the rear view mirror and moved along.

Interesting hearing that TWOK met with some really hostile fan response. Today it’s considered by many as Trek’s gold standard. But I guess times change but fans remain fans. No matter what you do, some will love it and others will despise it (and try to burn the whole house down in response).
The thing that will always stick with me is reading that Bennett and Meyer received death threats after the death of Spock was leaked. Fans stay fans, as you say.
 
Still don't agree on that. It wasn't because it was episodic that it went downhill in my opinion. Depends on what it was up against. I never actually watched the show on TV myself. I watched the pilot, but that was it, and it had nothing to do with the quality of the show.

Maybe people just weren't ready for a new Trek show.

Serialization works best for shows based on history (loosely) like Vikings or Black Sails, or about events that could occur in real life, Breaking Bad, Boardwalk Empire etc. It works and it's better for those type of shows.

But when we are talking about sci-fi or weird shows like The Outer Limits or Creepshow, it works so much better if it's episodic. You can do so much with it.
If it wasn't working they wouldn't be doing it.
 
Interesting hearing that TWOK met with some really hostile fan response. Today it’s considered by many as Trek’s gold standard. But I guess times change but fans remain fans. No matter what you do, some will love it and others will despise it (and try to burn the whole house down in response).
I read those Best of Trek books when I was in junior high in the early-'90s. I borrowed them from the local library. If I had them, I'd type some of the reactions. But, I'll try to put myself into the mindset of one of those fans from 1982 without any knowledge of what was to come later.

They killed off Spock. That's going to upset some people no matter how well it's done because, to them, Star Trek is Spock. Even more than Kirk. "I grok Spock!" "He's so much more a handsome in person." "Kirk did have quite the reputation as a ladies' man." "Not him. Spock." Then there's TMP, which came out a few years earlier. Kirk was back on the Enterprise heading out for new adventures. Then TWOK starts, and he's right back on Earth again, as if that never happened. And now he's this dad who's stayed away from David all his life? And the Ceti Eel. If you're not expecting it, that's going to be a shocker when you first see it.

I don't have a problem with any of the above, but I can see how what we take for granted in Star Trek today might've rubbed some people the wrong way back then.
 
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Still don't agree on that. It wasn't because it was episodic that it went downhill in my opinion. Depends on what it was up against. I never actually watched the show on TV myself. I watched the pilot, but that was it, and it had nothing to do with the quality of the show.

Maybe people just weren't ready for a new Trek show.
Nope. I rewatched ENT in 2020. From the distance of 20 years, at a time when I'm no longer sick of B&B, it still looked evident that during the second season of ENT, they were running on fumes. It's not that it was bad, it's more that it was aggressively dull. It's possibly the weakest season in all of Star Trek. Sorry.

The first season of TNG isn't that great either, but at least the way it was bad is fun to watch. Most of the time. So, in a weird way, I'd actually put it above the second season of ENT.
 
Nope. I rewatched ENT in 2020. From the distance of 20 years, at a time when I'm no longer sick of B&B, it still looked evident that during the second season of ENT, they were running on fumes. It's not that it was bad, it's more that it was aggressively dull. It's possibly the weakest season in all of Star Trek. Sorry.

The first season of TNG isn't that great either, but at least the way it was bad is fun to watch. Most of the time. So, in a weird way, I'd actually put it above the second season of ENT.

I binged watched all of ST about 3-4 years ago. I didn't do TOS or TAS but started with ENT and worked my through TNG, DS9 and VOY.

I thought the first 2 season of ENT were awesome, but I didn't think Bakula made a great captain. I also think the first 3 season of DS9 were the best and that VOY is better than DS9.
 
Still don't agree on that. It wasn't because it was episodic that it went downhill in my opinion. Depends on what it was up against. I never actually watched the show on TV myself. I watched the pilot, but that was it, and it had nothing to do with the quality of the show.

Maybe people just weren't ready for a new Trek show.

Serialization works best for shows based on history (loosely) like Vikings or Black Sails, or about events that could occur in real life, Breaking Bad, Boardwalk Empire etc. It works and it's better for those type of shows.

But when we are talking about sci-fi or weird shows like The Outer Limits or Creepshow, it works so much better if it's episodic. You can do so much with it.

I think you're starting to get confused.

You're confusing your personal preferences for what works for people and fans in general. One argument (the former) is perfectly valid and makes sense. You like what you like, and you dislike what you dislike. Nobody is going to change that or even try to talk you out of it.

The other argument (the latter) is not valid. My statement at the beginning of this debate was as simple as it gets:
Lots of people like episodic.

Lots don't

Fortunately, the Star Trek team knows that you can't please everyone, and they'll have show formats to suit different tastes.

And...somehow...you've found a way to argue against that? I thought that was about as agreeable and fundamental a (non) statement I could have made on the topic.

Look, there's a big difference between your own personal tastes and doing what you're currently doing, which is rationalizing those tastes into a more broad "truth" or "context" to try and solidify your position. One is reasonable, but the other will get you called out for BS every time.

Take my advise- nobody is going to take away from your your tastes and preferences. That's your thing. My statement was that there's different Star Trek for everyone, which is nice, because we can all watch what we like and we can ignore the stuff that we don't like. Seems like a great deal. You've instead come back with arguments about how Trek died because of serialization (no...it died because it was a stale franchise that didn't risk enough to be different, and became over-saturated given the creative exhaustion the producers and writers felt...as well as the continued limits and check-boxes the network insisted upon), which is completely untrue. And now you're saying that serialization is cool, unless it's sci-fi, in which case it's somehow not cool.

Frankly, that makes no sense.

So I'm going to consider this "case closed" on my end. I thought my point was pretty simple. I still do. But somehow it's turned into something that has me all...

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I binged watched all of ST about 3-4 years ago. I didn't do TOS or TAS but started with ENT and worked my through TNG, DS9 and VOY.

I thought the first 2 season of ENT were awesome, but I didn't think Bakula made a great captain. I also think the first 3 season of DS9 were the best and that VOY is better than DS9.
I guess our tastes are diametrically opposed then. It happens. ;)
 
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