Spoilers Let’s talk about the destruction of Trek utopia…

[Greg Cox]

Definitely. Or more specifically -- modern Star Trek, with the exception of Lower Decks, doesn't start off by making people feel good. I think the folks who stick with DIS and PIC in spite of them not being immediately emotionally reassuring often find that they do come to a place of emotional reassurance and good feelings, but that place is reached through the catharsis of confronting bad things first. I will go to my grave insisting that Picard's "That's why we're all here -- to save each other" line from "Et in Arcadia Ego, Part II" is one of the most genuinely hopeful, life-affirming, Star Trek-ian scenes in the entire franchise. But I certainly won't deny that to get there, you have to go through Picard's private hell first.

Which is a classic STAR TREK plot structure. Hell, "The Cage" begins with Pike depressed and disillusioned and tempted to quit Starfleet. THE WRATH OF KHAN begins with Kirk feeling old and obsolete and past his prime. DS9 began with Sisko still bitter about the the death of his wife. GENERATIONS begins with Picard losing his family. The 2009 movie begins with Kirk being orphaned, growing up without a father, and getting into trouble a lot.

STAR TREK has never been just about "evolved" people sipping tea, listening to classical music, and making inspirational speeches about human progress. There's always been struggle and hardships and personals demons to overcome, even in the advanced future of the Federation. That's been a vital part of the franchise ever since Pike.

 

[Sci]

Which is a classic STAR TREK plot structure. Hell, "The Cage" begins with Pike depressed and disillusioned and tempted to quit Starfleet. THE WRATH OF KHAN begins with Kirk feeling old and obsolete and past his prime. DS9 began with Sisko still bitter about the the death of his wife. GENERATIONS begins with Picard losing his family. The 2009 movie begins with Kirk being orphaned, growing up without a father, and getting into trouble a lot.

STAR TREK has never been just about people sipping tea, listening to classical music, and making inspirational speeches about human progress. There's always been struggle and hardships and personals demons to overcome, even in the advanced future of the Federation. That's been a vital part of the franchise ever since Pike.

Exactly!

And, none of that is incompatible with Trekkian idealism. Because those challenges were all very real, but they weren't the result of structural forces acting to oppress the characters. Personal struggles do not preclude Edith Keeler's vision of a brighter future from "The City on the Edge of Forever:"

Now I don't pretend to tell you how to find happiness and love when every day is just a struggle to survive, but I do insist that you do survive because the days and the years ahead are worth living for. One day soon man is going to be able to harness incredible energies, maybe even the atom. Energies that could ultimately hurl us to other worlds in some sort of spaceship. And the men that reach out into space will be able to find ways to feed the hungry millions of the world and to cure their diseases. They will be able to find a way to give each man hope and a common future, and those are the days worth living for. Our deserts will bloom.

 

[Greg Cox]

Hmmm yeah pretty much.

See I don't get that attitude. There's plenty of shows I don't like and don't watch, but if other people enjoy them, why not let them have their fun? It's no skin off my nose.

Lord knows there's no shortage of other stuff for me to watch, what with there being 500 channels and streaming services and what-not these days. Hell, there's more media than any one person can possibly partake of.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Hmmm yeah pretty much.

That way lies facism

 

[Unimatrix Q]

Hmmm yeah pretty much.

That's one of the most egotistical posts i ever read on this board

So glad you don't have to decide on the future of Trek.

 

[fireproof78]

STAR TREK has never been just about "evolved" people sipping tea, listening to classical music, and making inspirational speeches about human progress. There's always been struggle and hardships and personals demons to overcome, even in the advanced future of the Federation. That's been a vital part of the franchise ever since Pike.

Indeed yes. It's amazing to me the idea that progress can somehow come without cost, without effort without people choosing to become better rather than remain the same.

 

[Greg Cox]

To quote a certain James T. Kirk:

"Maybe we weren’t meant for paradise. Maybe we were meant to fight our way through. Struggle, claw our way up, scratch for every inch of the way."

 

[DarthTimon]

Hmmm yeah pretty much.

Why would you take this position?

 

[cooleddie74]

You must not know him that well.

 

[Lord Garth]

Hmmm yeah pretty much.

That's the first honest thing you've ever said on TrekBBS.

 

[The Old Mixer]

I weighed the implications of what Pubert said, but ultimately it was a response to a common bit of "magical thinking" that I never understood...the idea that if somebody wishes a show would be canceled, they're somehow threatening to deny other people the pleasure of watching it. One fan wishing/hoping for a show to be canceled doesn't make it so. But the same fan continuing to hate-watch the show...actually helps keep it "on the air".

 

[fireproof78]

Why would you take this position?

This is becoming something I have seen more frequently. That somehow newer installments take away from the franchise.

 

[Greg Cox]

This is becoming something I have seen more frequently. That somehow newer installments take away from the frsnchise.

'Cause everyone knows that JAWS: THE REVENGE somehow ruined the original JAWS.

But, yes, I've seen this argument made fairly frequently lately. Don't quite get it.

 

[cooleddie74]

All Jaws the Revenge ruined was the notion that somebody could climb out of the water and still be wet. Michael Caine getting on that boat and being bone dry could be one of the greatest all-time continuity errors in film history.

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[Tenacity]

At least his hair is wet.

 

[cooleddie74]

I'm surprised they got that detail right.

 

[fireproof78]

But, yes, I've seen this argument made fairly frequently lately. Don't quite get it.

I saw it described as diluting the brand. The discussion I read was centered more around Star Wars and the feeling that the Mandalorian is doing harm by being mediocre. They likened it to a poorly painted flower in a field of flowers painting ruining the whole piece. Now, for me, I still don't quite get it. If a show/film is good on its own then it is still good, no matter what came after it. There is nothing that future installments can do to take away the value of the original work. It's always good.

 

[Lord Garth]

Right, so...

With the Terminator movies, I ignore all of them after 2.
With the Alien movies, I ignore any of the ones I don't like (both AVPs and Covenant).
With Transformers, I ignore anything that isn't Generation 1.

With Star Trek, I treat it like it ended in 1999 (end of DS9) and started up again in 2017 (beginning of DSC). I treat Nemesis like it's this long-lost prequel to Picard.

So, if I see an entry in a long-running franchise that I personally think is shit, I just ignore it. Completely and utterly. Doesn't mean I don't acknowledge it as canon (that's just childish), but I move it all the way back to the dustbin of the back of my mind. Never to be seen or heard from again. Unless I feel like it.

 

[Greg Cox]

Yeah. It's nonsense. Hell, Mark Twain wrote a couple of potboiler sequels to Tom Sawyer that are largely forgotten these days. Doesn't mean that Tom Sawyer (or Huckleberry Finn) aren't still classics.

 

[cooleddie74]

Diamonds Are Forever is at best mediocre and at worst hot garbage. It doesn't take away from On Her Majesty's Secret Service.