Poll Is this 32nd century a keeper?

[Kamen Rider Blade]

I was not aware that moral cowardice was considered a virtue?

The "Prime Directive" is to prevent yourself from getting involed in affairs that might spiral out of control.

While some might call it "Moral Cowardice", others see it as a form of preventing good intentions from making a muck out of an existing situation.

e.g. (Admiral Mark Jameson: By 2319, he had reached the rank of commander, and was sent to negotiate the release of hostages from Mordan IV. Officially, he successfully negotiated their release. However, in truth he supplied weapons to Karnas, the hostage-taker, in return for their release, and falsified the official records. This was a violation of the Prime Directive, so Jameson made an attempt to even things up by also supplying weapons to Karnas' rivals, thus causing forty years of civil war, although he claimed that he had assumed that the resulting conflict would last for only a few years before it ended.)

While what Mark Jameson did was for the "Best of Intentions", he caused a forty year long civil war despite his original estimations of civil war lasting only a few years.

I think DTI or S31 would go and try to change at least some things.

S31 is it's own loose cannon, you have no control over it, StarFleet doesn't either.

They are their own entity that operates in secret to do what they believe is best for the UFP / StarFleet.

DTI operates on the Temporal Prime Directive along with various other rules & regulations.

DTI has allowed certain Temporal Changes to stand, like Admiral Janeway's changing of time via going back to meet her younger self and helping her destroy the Borg Transwarp Network Hub.

As to why it was allowed to stand, please read Christopher L. Bennett's Book (Department of Temporal Investigations: Watching the Clock) for a very plausible answer.

 

[fireproof78]

The "Prime Directive" is to prevent yourself from getting involed in affairs that might spiral out of control.

While some might call it "Moral Cowardice", others see it as a form of preventing good intentions from making a muck out of an existing situation.

e.g. (Admiral Mark Jameson: By 2319, he had reached the rank of commander, and was sent to negotiate the release of hostages from Mordan IV. Officially, he successfully negotiated their release. However, in truth he supplied weapons to Karnas, the hostage-taker, in return for their release, and falsified the official records. This was a violation of the Prime Directive, so Jameson made an attempt to even things up by also supplying weapons to Karnas' rivals, thus causing forty years of civil war, although he claimed that he had assumed that the resulting conflict would last for only a few years before it ended.)

While what Mark Jameson did was for the "Best of Intentions", he caused a forty year long civil war despite his original estimations of civil war lasting only a few years.


S31 is it's own loose cannon, you have no control over it, StarFleet doesn't either.

They are their own entity that operates in secret to do what they believe is best for the UFP / StarFleet.

DTI operates on the Temporal Prime Directive along with various other rules & regulations.

DTI has allowed certain Temporal Changes to stand, like Admiral Janeway's changing of time via going back to meet her younger self and helping her destroy the Borg Transwarp Network Hub.

As to why it was allowed to stand, please read Christopher L. Bennett's Book (Department of Temporal Investigations: Watching the Clock) for a very plausible answer.

So, it's only moral cowardice if there are no rules prohibiting it? Again, this is the term being used to describe the actions of the Discovery crew to not go back in time and fix the burn? I am trying to determine what is the threshold that instigates action. Thus far, the Burn is the only one that seems to be called for them to intervene using time travel. I find that rather odd.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

So, it's only moral cowardice if there are no rules prohibiting it? Again, this is the term being used to describe the actions of the Discovery crew to not go back in time and fix the burn? I am trying to determine what is the threshold that instigates action. Thus far, the Burn is the only one that seems to be called for them to intervene using time travel. I find that rather odd.

Captain Braxton tried. Captain Braxton of the Aeon thought Voyager was the cause of a Solar System wide disaster, so he went back in time to try to prevent it, but low and behold, he was the inadvertent instigator of said events that allowed Henry Starling to cause said disaster the first time around before he went back and tried to do something about it. But Voyager took care of the issue and all is well.

Anyways, I have no issue with Michael Burnham going back in time to fix things. At this point, I expect her to time travel eventually once she understands the problem and what caused it along with how to stop it and prevent it from happening in the future.

 

[fireproof78]

Anyways, I have no issue with Michael Burnham going back in time to fix things. At this point, I expect her to time travel eventually once she understands the problem and what caused it along with how to stop it and prevent it from happening in the future.

I don't have an issue with it either way..I think the description of moral cowardice if they don't do anything. Especially since there are rules.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

Especially since there are rules.

I have a feeling that the Ban on Time traveling is what got them in trouble in the first place.

It prevented the UFP from seeing a threat that they might've been able to see with their Temporal Sensors and other Extra Dimensional scanning capabilities.

Because they intentionally blinded themselves, they gave the enemy an advantage, and that allowed them to attack the UFP / StarFleet in one fell swoop.

 

[fireproof78]

What enemy?

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

What enemy?

Whomever caused "The Burn".

 

[fireproof78]

Whomever caused "The Burn".

I'll not assume it was an enemy.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Yeah, DTI has their own reasonings for not using Time travel Willy Nilly, and if that's their justification, so be it.

Do the DTI even use time travel at all?

 

[WarpTenLizard]

While the Burn sounds terrible, it was centuries ago, and the 32nd Century doesn't seem particularly horrible. I find it kind of asinine of Michael to declare that she wants to erase centuries of history and individuals just because her favorite organization (which was barely a century or two old when she left, IF that!) and form of travel no longer exist.

It would be like someone who traveled here from a century ago declaring their intention to erase all of us and our grandparents to prevent the First World War, save the Ottoman Empire, and ensure that steam engines never go out of style.

 

[fireproof78]

While the Burn sounds terrible, it was centuries ago, and the 32nd Century doesn't seem particularly horrible. I find it kind of asinine of Michael to declare that she wants to erase centuries of history and individuals just because her favorite organization (which was barely a century or two old when she left, IF that!) and form of travel no longer exist.

It would be like someone who traveled here from a century ago declaring their intention to erase all of us and our grandparents to prevent the First World War, save the Ottoman Empire, and ensure that steam engines never go out of style.

It was only 130 (?) Odd years ago, not centuries. Burnham is coping with bad news in the way ahe knows-identify the problem and find a solution.

 

[Nerys Myk]

While the Burn sounds terrible, it was centuries ago, and the 32nd Century doesn't seem particularly horrible. I find it kind of asinine of Michael to declare that she wants to erase centuries of history and individuals just because her favorite organization (which was barely a century or two old when she left, IF that!) and form of travel no longer exist.

It would be like someone who traveled here from a century ago declaring their intention to erase all of us and our grandparents to prevent the First World War, save the Ottoman Empire, and ensure that steam engines never go out of style.

How is she going to erase anything? It’s about rebuilding not erasing. That and finding the cause of the Burn.

The Burn only happened just over a Century ago, so it hasn’t been centuries. It’s within the living memory of many people.

The Federation still exists. We saw it last week. Warp travel still exists, we’ve seen it in every episode.

 

[Deks]

I have a feeling that the Ban on Time traveling is what got them in trouble in the first place.

It prevented the UFP from seeing a threat that they might've been able to see with their Temporal Sensors and other Extra Dimensional scanning capabilities.

Because they intentionally blinded themselves, they gave the enemy an advantage, and that allowed them to attack the UFP / StarFleet in one fell swoop.

I already presented this possibility before... and it was suggested by Christopher that Disco won't be using Time Travel to fix the Burn.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

I already presented this possibility before... and it was suggested by Christopher that Disco won't be using Time Travel to fix the Burn.

And the showrunners have flat out said that DSC will stay in the 32nd century (i.e. the ship and crew won't return to 2258) and the Burn will not be undone.

 

[WarpTenLizard]

How is she going to erase anything? It’s about rebuilding not erasing. That and finding the cause of the Burn.

The Burn only happened just over a Century ago, so it hasn’t been centuries. It’s within the living memory of many people.

The Federation still exists. We saw it last week. Warp travel still exists, we’ve seen it in every episode.

I thought she said (in an earlier episode of Season 3) that she "won't let this future stand" ? Maybe I misinterpreted what she meant.

 

[DigificWriter]

Discovery's crew is going to 'fix' the future in which they find themselves by restoring the ideals and reach of the Federation, not by going back in time to prevent the Burn from happening.

That couldn't be any clearer based on what the show has presented to us through five episodes.

 

[ITDUDE]

And the showrunners have flat out said that DSC will stay in the 32nd century (i.e. the ship and crew won't return to 2258) and the Burn will not be undone.

Ah and you believe the mass media the showrunners?

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Ah and you believe ... the showrunners?

Why shouldn't I?

 

[ITDUDE]

Why shouldn't I?

https://io9.gizmodo.com/j-j-abrams-admits-lying-about-star-trek-2s-khan-was-a-1475078061

 

[Sci]

While the Burn sounds terrible, it was centuries ago, and the 32nd Century doesn't seem particularly horrible.

The 32nd Century looks pretty horrible to me. Large swaths of local space are essentially controlled by violent crime syndicates and pirates. Democratic governance has effectively collapsed in those areas. And planets like Earth and Trill have regressed into nationalism and isolationism. Violence has become the default reaction to encountering new ships on both the macro and micro levels; wars must have become incredibly common. The rate of violent deaths in what used to be Federation territory must be exponentially higher than in the 24th Century. And technology levels appear to have regressed a great deal.

It would be like someone who traveled here from a century ago declaring their intention to erase all of us and our grandparents to prevent the First World War, save the Ottoman Empire, and ensure that steam engines never go out of style.

Setting aside that others have already pointed out to you that Burnham means to restore the Federation, not use time travel to re-write history -- I think a better comparison would be someone from the 1st Century CE or BC Pax Romana-era Roman Empire time-travelling to the 7th Century before the rise of Charlemagne and declaring she intends to restore the Roman Empire and its more-advanced technology and infrastructure.

Ah and you believe the mass media the showrunners?

I see no reason to think they're lying, and I see no reason why they would use time travel anyway. That would be the most boring, dumbest way to resolve the conflict.