DC Comics: Rebirth

[The Realist]

The pandemic broke me of the floppy habit, and I am now a trade-only reader, so this wouldn’t affect me at all, even if true. I always found trades more satisfying anyway, because I had a hard time remembering what the hell I had read in the last 22-page sliver of a story a month ago. If they stopped doing trades, however, I’d have a problem, because I have absolutely zero interest in reading comics on a screen.

 

[Ovation]

because I have absolutely zero interest in reading comics on a screen.

I dunno. When I screencast my comiXology titles to my 43” 4K monitor it looks great (and the details I can see in the panel by panel mode are quite nice—the resolution of the images scale up in size quite nicely). But, it is an an acquired taste. I first moved to digital about 10 years ago and it was because the last decent comic shop around here closed up. But what made it great to me was the steady availability of back issues at a fraction of what I would have to pay for physical copies. But different strokes and all that.

 

[The Realist]

I freely admit I’m an out of step get-off-my-lawn type when it comes to entertainment options. I loathe streaming television, and wait for any streaming exclusives that I want to watch to come out on Blu-ray instead. I won’t read ebooks, either. IMO, books are books, comics are comics, TV is TV, and the Internet is the Internet. I’m not interested in crossing those streams.

I associate reading on a screen with the ephemeral: forum posts, blogs, tweets, news stories. Stuff I tend to skim. For focused, dedicated, immersive reading — reading of substance (and yes, I include comics) —I want paper and ink.

Part of it, too, is an old-fashioned geek collector’s mentality. I want to look at my books and movies, array them on shelves, and not be dependent on devices or third-party service providers for their availability.

I’m sure this sounds nutty to most, especially all the young whippersnappers out there. But I’m good with that.

 

[Ovation]

I freely admit I’m an out of step get-off-my-lawn type when it comes to entertainment options. I loathe streaming television, and wait for any streaming exclusives that I want to watch to come out on Blu-ray instead. I won’t read ebooks, either. IMO, books are books, comics are comics, TV is TV, and the Internet is the Internet. I’m not interested in crossing those streams.

I associate reading on a screen with the ephemeral: forum posts, blogs, tweets, news stories. Stuff I tend to skim. For focused, dedicated, immersive reading — reading of substance (and yes, I include comics) —I want paper and ink.

Part of it, too, is an old-fashioned geek collector’s mentality. I want to look at my books and movies, array them on shelves, and not be dependent on devices or third-party service providers for their availability.

I’m sure this sounds nutty to most, especially all the young whippersnappers out there. But I’m good with that.

I hear ya. My 5000+ books, a roughly equal number of DVDs/Blu-rays, 2500 CDs, 6000+ “floppy” comics (new one on me, “floppies”), are all testaments to my preference for physical things. But, if I were to add all my digital titles (books, movies, music, comics) as physical items, I’d simply run out of room (I do have to share the house with my wife, who has no interest in 90% of the content of my collections). Happy wife, happy life.

Were I alone in my house, I’d probably be more like you re: digital services. But I would never make the trade.

 

[kirk55555]

OK, now I believe you. Thank you for providing proof.

to be fair, in my earlier post I was posting from a tablet and its a pain to get links, but it was pretty easy to find what I needed when I switched to my PC.

I didn't realize it was such a disaster behind the scenes.
And I did know about all of the bad books you were talking about, I was just trying to point out that there were quite a few books that did get a positive reception. Another one I remembered after my other post was the Swamp Thing series, which I haven't read myself yet, but I do remember hearing good thing about.
I have to confess, I was writing off a lot of what you are saying as your usual overreactions, but I guess in this case a lot of it wasn't.

I wish I could find the tweet thread to get the exact quotes, but there was a good one from Gail Simone that basically talked about how in the New 52, if a writer wanted to show, say, an average day in the life of a character as a comic issue they'd have to fight hard with the people in charge, but if they wanted to show someone get their face ripped off it would go right through. That really represents the New 52 philosophy well.

There were some good New 52 series, but in my opinion they were good despite the New 52. If anyone hasn't read it, I'd highly recommend Demon Knights by Paul Cornell, a medieval magic type series starring Etrigan, madame Xanadu, Grant Morrison's Shinning Knight, etc in the distant past having some very interesting adventures. It only went for about 23 issues, but it was probably my favorite book from that time.

 

[Kai "the spy"]

What I would be opposed to is to limit the output to the big multimedia brands. At least in mini-series form, or an anthology title, they should still do something with the lesser known characters.

Just pointing out, I have no inside knowledge.

Vixen Headlines DC Digital First Anthology Series, Truth & Justice

They also point out that, though digital-first, the chapters will be collected in 40-page floppy starting February (included in the Feb solicits). So much for them leaving floppies behind.

So, if anybody wants to play the lottery, I could make up some numbers for you. No guaranties, obviously.

Hang on, wasn't the Icon & Rocket ongoing announced for February? Not included in those solicits.

 

[JD]

I read the first collection of that one and really enjoyed it. And I've been loving Snyder's Batman, the Flash series, and John's Aquaman. Brian Azarello's Wonder Woman was weird, I enjoyed it, but it was so different from the usual Wonder Woman, that I have trouble even thinking of it as a WW series.
As for the news from the last page, I'm pretty much 90% digital and mostly trades, so them going digital only for single issues and just trades would not bother me at all. I know it would be horrible for a lot of the comic shops, but I have wonder if it would also help if they started selling more comics in grocery stores, and places like Wal-Mart and Target. I think if they were set up in a way that they could be an impulse buy a lot more people would buy them.
One of the main reasons I went digital for my comics is that pretty much all of the comics near me are small, dingy stores in really bad areas. And when I did find a decent one, they never seemed to last very long. If they could find a way to get more, bigger, nicer stores out there that could stick around, I would have probably shopped at them a lot more.

 

[The Realist]

There’s a decent, small comics shop on my way home from work, very near my house, and a really sprawling, well-stocked one not that much farther from me, with a huge selection of new and backlist trades in stock.

Unfortunately for them, I quit buying floppies during the pandemic — and I can get trades a lot cheaper online, without the COVID risk of brick and mortar retail shopping. So I haven’t actually set foot in either store for months.

 

[JD]

EW.com has posted a new interview with Tom King and Clay Mann about Batman/Catwoman. I'm a little surprised to see it's a Black Label title, I thought the whole point of the Black Label was that they weren't part of the main universe.

 

[Kai "the spy"]

And that miniseries isn't part of the main universe anymore. It's a sequel to King's run on "Batman", but an off-shoot or alternate timeline. Think of it as a test balloon for the Omniverse.

 

[JD]

Oh, OK.

 

[theenglish]

There were some good New 52 series, but in my opinion they were good despite the New 52. If anyone hasn't read it, I'd highly recommend Demon Knights by Paul Cornell, a medieval magic type series starring Etrigan, madame Xanadu, Grant Morrison's Shinning Knight, etc in the distant past having some very interesting adventures. It only went for about 23 issues, but it was probably my favorite book from that time.

I really liked quite a few series from the New 52 and I like the ambitiousness of it. My problem was that really good series like Demon Knights didn't last very long (I also loved Animal Man, Swamp Thing, Red Lanterns, Phantom Stranger, and Morrison's run on Action Comics as well as Snyder's Batman, and GJ's Aquaman). In continuity, the DCU started building a new mythos that had some very interesting elements--but they never really seemed to go anywhere. Constantine's relationship with Zatanna could have been very interesting but Constantine was made too powerful and nothing like what made the character great. Zatanna was relegated to a second rate magic user. Kyle Rainer's series started well but nothing ever came of it and eventually he returned to the same GL he had always been. Booster Gold just disappeared when he had become a really great character prior to the New 52.

Basically it had a lot of initial promise which was never fulfilled.

 

[JoeZhang]

Looking at the wider Warner Bros context and where the layoffs in the org structure - This is not a company that looks like it is going to be selling single issues in the direct market much longer.

 

[kirk55555]

I really liked quite a few series from the New 52 and I like the ambitiousness of it. My problem was that really good series like Demon Knights didn't last very long (I also loved Animal Man, Swamp Thing, Red Lanterns, Phantom Stranger, and Morrison's run on Action Comics as well as Snyder's Batman, and GJ's Aquaman). In continuity, the DCU started building a new mythos that had some very interesting elements--but they never really seemed to go anywhere. Constantine's relationship with Zatanna could have been very interesting but Constantine was made too powerful and nothing like what made the character great. Zatanna was relegated to a second rate magic user. Kyle Rainer's series started well but nothing ever came of it and eventually he returned to the same GL he had always been. Booster Gold just disappeared when he had become a really great character prior to the New 52.

Basically it had a lot of initial promise which was never fulfilled.

Oh, I hated Constantine and Zatanna in the New 52. She went from a strong magician who could kick Constantine's ass with ease to a fairly weak willed woman with daddy issues who learned basically everything she knew from Constantine. It was another example of the New 52's rampant sexism, right along with what happened to Starfire and Power Girl but in a less sexual way (although they made sure you knew that Zatanna was fucking Constantine).

I actually loathe Constantine to this day because of how much they gave to him in recent years, including the New 52 stuff. He was a few writers favorite, so he became all important and ruined a lot of shit while also being shoved down peoples throats. He was a lot better as he was pre-New 52, a semi obscure magic character who had his area of expertise (demon stuff), but wasn't a heavy hitter in the magical person department. Now he's practically a "Gary Stu", and ruins almost everything he's in (outside of live action, he's one of only two good characters on Legends of Tomorrow, but that show doesn't make him an over powered, artifically important asshole).

 

[theenglish]

Oh, I hated Constantine and Zatanna in the New 52. She went from a strong magician who could kick Constantine's ass with ease to a fairly weak willed woman with daddy issues who learned basically everything she knew from Constantine. It was another example of the New 52's rampant sexism, right along with what happened to Starfire and Power Girl but in a less sexual way (although they made sure you knew that Zatanna was fucking Constantine).

This is one of those instances when I agree with you, especially regarding Power Girl and Starfire. In recent years though, in the new Justice League Dark series, Constantine is written more reminiscent of his Pre-New52 days albeit altered to fit into the super-hero world. Zatanna has been empowered (both magically and in her personality), and although Zatanna and Constantine still have a romantic history the dynamic is much better written.

 

[JD]

I never read any of the comics with the New 52 Starfire, but from what I read about them, it sounds like that was pretty bad.

 

[kirk55555]

This is one of those instances when I agree with you, especially regarding Power Girl and Starfire. In recent years though, in the new Justice League Dark series, Constantine is written more reminiscent of his Pre-New52 days albeit altered to fit into the super-hero world. Zatanna has been empowered (both magically and in her personality), and although Zatanna and Constantine still have a romantic history the dynamic is much better written.

she's definitely been written a bit better at least starting with Rebirth, and to be fair her and Constantine having some kind of relationship was first mention way before the New 52 (although I don't like the concept). the new 52 basically making the whole magical part of her life revolvemaround Constantine was the major problem, and that seems to have been dropped a while ago.

I never read any of the comics with the New 52 Starfire, but from what I read about them, it sounds like that was pretty bad.

Starfire literally could not remember any guys names that she wasn't currently or recently had sex with. She also had sex with literally any adult male she could find and who wanted to, which is not how Starfire was pre-new 52. Also, apparently the art in the first issue of Red Hood and the Outlaws was so risque in regards to Starfire's bikini that they had to recolor it, which is kind of hilarious.

overall it's a real toss-up as to whether Starfire or power girl got fucked over more by The New 52, but it's pretty universally agreed but they both came out just about the worst of any of the new 52 characters.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

she's definitely been written a bit better at least starting with Rebirth, and to be fair her and Constantine having some kind of relationship was first mention way before the New 52 (although I don't like the concept).

Not sure exactly when it was first established, but it's not a particularly new concept (she had various different "muggle" partners during her Adventure Comics days for instance), most likely it was at least alluded to in either Books of Magic (1991) or certainly by Totems (2000).

 

[theenglish]

Not sure exactly when it was first established, but it's not a particularly new concept (she had various different "muggle" partners during her Adventure Comics days for instance), most likely it was at least alluded to in either Books of Magic (1991) or certainly by Totems (2000).

In the original Justice League Dark, it wasn't just that they had had a relationship--it was that the relationship power dynamic was lopsided. She was written as having been saved from a mediocre life doing "tricks for money" by Constantine. She was also subservient to Constantine in the early days of that book which didn't sit very well with me.

 

[kirk55555]

In the original Justice League Dark, it wasn't just that they had had a relationship--it was that the relationship power dynamic was lopsided. She was written as having been saved from a mediocre life doing "tricks for money" by Constantine. She was also subservient to Constantine in the early days of that book which didn't sit very well with me.

Yep, thats what pissed me off. I don't like them having a romantic relationship, but it doesn't bother me that much (looking it up, I remembered Zatanna and Constantine having been together being mentioned in an old secret Origins issue starring Zatanna, and that came out in 1988). Him becoming basically the most important person to her magical development, and basically dominating her life, is what really pissed me off.

It was 100% done because some writers basically just want to "Gary Stu" Constantine, when he should really not be a particularly powerful or influential magician, especially when it comes to Zatanna. He's a demon hunter type guy, who gets by on luck, con man gimmicks and a bit of magic. Zatanna is a magician, who wields powerful magic to fight shit that Constantine would never deal with normally. They don't even really overlap when it comes to what magical threats they fight, outside of a few big demonic threats.

Zatanna (in good comics) was taught by her father and then became even more powerful on her own. New 52 Zatanna owes literally everything to some British asshole and its completely nonsensical and honestly fairly sexist to make the woman totally dependent on a guy (even in the old comics her dad taught her the basics but she took it from there and earned her reputation, in the New 52 basically everything she is revolves around Constantine).

As someone who was neutral on Constantine pre-New 52 and has always liked Zatanna a lot, I've really grown to loathe Constantine in the comics because of this stuff.