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Spoilers ST Discovery - Starships and Technology Season Three SPOILER Discussion

The Romulans developed a forced quantum singularity for a power source and didn't seem to use dilithium to regulate those reactions - Starfleet knew about it... and could have developed their own version in the proceeding years just because they knew it was possible.

The fake USS Dauntless (which had a Quantum Slipstream drive - all of which Voyager crew scanned in detail and brought back to the Federation) didn't use Antimatter (and by extension Dilithium).
Krieger Waves (never completed - but the research was still there and Enterprise-D recreated the entire station and Krieger Waves experiment which allowed Geordi to absolve Riker) - no followup on that one.

Omega Molecule - Voyager found a way to safely stabilize and control Omega using the harmonic resonance chamber... but Omega Directive prevented them from keeping and eventually using the molecules and so they destroyed them - but the crew retained the knowledge of what they did, and even though Janeway deleted those logs, its possible a security backup was made for Starfleet higher ups to review the data regardless. They may fear Omega, but they're also not stupid to pass up an opportunity to study what the crew did (and besides, plenty of new discoveries in power generation come with potential dangers - that doesn't stop you from finding SAFER ways of pursuing it).

The Borg also don't seem to use Dilithium or Antimatter for power generation.
Both the Enterprise-D and Voyager crews were on board Borg ships and scanned Borg technology in detail. Also, 7 of 9 was liberated from the collective... acquired massive amount of data from her being in the collective second time (in Dark Frontier) and downloaded that data into Voyager's database.

Just to name a few.
I cannot recall all of them, but I think there may have been other instances throughout 23rd and 24th centuries mentioning power sources that did NOT rely on M/AM reaction or dilithium for regulation.

Bottom line is... Trek demonstrated on more than one occasion there are PLENTY of options that go beyond dilithium and antimatter for other alien species... it just never explored them in detail.
It also seems stupid to me to have such a limit in Trek... it never presented itself as such.
Its just lazy writing.

The Trill were also developing wormhole tech in DS9, sans-subspace destruction.

Slipstream needs benamite, which Voyager could synthesize, but it would have taken years to make enough. Obviously the hurdle is not capability, but capacity. A dedicated facility aught to be able to make benamite in far greater volume, as in enough for one ship in less time, or multiple ships in the same time.

The real problem is the benamite destabilizes quickly after use, so the Dauntless must have had some sort of perfected on board synthesis, or stabilization method. Or, if it really only degrades after use, there needs to be enough in isolated storage for multiple trips like the ridiculously huge dilithium room in Discovery.

Seven MIGHT have solved Omega Molecule stabilization. Frankly, I would assume the Federation would have ordered the process attempted again given what happened, and just do it with a holographically, or dumb android, crewed slow ship so the experiment can be done in the already destroyed subspace zone, to avoid destroying more subspace.

The timeship Wells had a temporal transporter with at least galactic range. There's also Scotty's transwarp beaming which would also make a great ship propulsion method, and for all we know is the step up to regular transwarp. Transwarp beaming could be the precursor to temporal beaming.

There's also the catapult thing Voyager used, which used a non-dilithium power, and triaxial warp drive which has no mention of a warp core.

I forgot about dimensional transporters, which are more of a medical question than a technical question. That should be scalable up to ships and interstellar distances somehow.

There is also at least one episode in TNG which mentions a stargate.
In "That Hope Is You", Book curses to Burnham that he can't afford X, Y or Z and has to make do with dilithium. We can't tell whether his ship would be equipped to fly on X if he could get some; or whether he has another ship with X engines that he cannot afford to fly at all; or whether he's saying he can't afford to obtain a ship that would use X, Y or Z.

The likeliest interpretation IMHO is the last one: no, he couldn't fill her tanks with benamite and go to quantum slipstream even if somehow the fuel became available to him. Instead, he would first have to obtain a ship with slipstream engines to go with that benamite. His Nautilus is dilithium-only and doesn't work without it, or with alternate fuels or catalysts or whatnot. And it can only do regular warp.

Timo Saloniemi

Book says he could go slipstream if he had benamite and that no one can make benamite for slipstream, but I explain above why lack of benamite should be BS. He also says no one can do wormhole because the Gorn tried and failed.
 
Says who though?
No one to date even mentioned that the forced Quantum singularity uses dilithium crystals... and why should it?
Its a completely different method of power generation than M/AM reactions.
Says the writers of Discovery. Obviously, if the Romulan drive didn't use dilithium, everyone would have switched over and the galaxy wouldn't be so broken up.

Let go of your preconceptions, online technical specification fanfictions, and enjoy.
 
The Trill were also developing wormhole tech in DS9, sans-subspace destruction.

Slipstream needs benamite, which Voyager could synthesize, but it would have taken years to make enough. Obviously the hurdle is not capability, but capacity. A dedicated facility aught to be able to make benamite in far greater volume, as in enough for one ship in less time, or multiple ships in the same time.

The real problem is the benamite destabilizes quickly after use, so the Dauntless must have had some sort of perfected on board synthesis, or stabilization method. Or, if it really only degrades after use, there needs to be enough in isolated storage for multiple trips like the ridiculously huge dilithium room in Discovery.

Seven MIGHT have solved Omega Molecule stabilization. Frankly, I would assume the Federation would have ordered the process attempted again given what happened, and just do it with a holographically, or dumb android, crewed slow ship so the experiment can be done in the already destroyed subspace zone, to avoid destroying more subspace.

The timeship Wells had a temporal transporter with at least galactic range. There's also Scotty's transwarp beaming which would also make a great ship propulsion method, and for all we know is the step up to regular transwarp. Transwarp beaming could be the precursor to temporal beaming.

There's also the catapult thing Voyager used, which used a non-dilithium power, and triaxial warp drive which has no mention of a warp core.

I forgot about dimensional transporters, which are more of a medical question than a technical question. That should be scalable up to ships and interstellar distances somehow.

There is also at least one episode in TNG which mentions a stargate.


Book says he could go slipstream if he had benamite and that no one can make benamite for slipstream, but I explain above why lack of benamite should be BS. He also says no one can do wormhole because the Gorn tried and failed.

On the subject of benamite crystals... as you said, it wasn't a problem of MAKING them... Kim just said it would take years to make new ones (and they degrade quickly after use).
However, we're talking 810 years after Voyager returned home.
Starfleet would have probably been able to not only synthesize benamite crystals in large quantities and much shorter time frames only 5 to 10 years after Voyager returned (a process which would have to undergo VAST improvements by the 25th century alone... nevermind the 32nd), but also find a process to recrystalize them (basically, your average Starfleet ship from say mid/late 25th century alreadty shouldn't have a problem in making new benamite crystals ridiculously fast and would probably have a process to recrystalise them too.

Come 32nd century, this process apparently doesn't exist... which is stretching it to the seams.

The only possible explanation is that Starfleet ships and bases had proprietary access to QS technology and benamite crystal production and recrystalization technology... civilians might need to rely on those sources which would be easily accessible throughout Federation... but its hard to imagine that every ship with QS capability (which Booker's ship had) wouldn't have the ability to make benamite crystals in a flash and recrystalize them.
 
Says the writers of Discovery. Obviously, if the Romulan drive didn't use dilithium, everyone would have switched over and the galaxy wouldn't be so broken up.

Let go of your preconceptions, online technical specification fanfictions, and enjoy.

I'm just extrapolating based on what Trek established long before Discovery writers started muddying things with their nonsense.

The thing is, Trek has this nasty habit of saying 'in the galaxy' when it actually means 'in the Federation'.
We still don't know if the entire Galaxy supply of dilithium was affected or if it was just within the Federation... and as the latest episode established... mostly Federation ships were destroyed in the Burn (nothing was mentioned of the Romulans, Dominion, Borg, or any other species for that matter - just the Federation.)
 
One wonders if the "mostly Federation losses" thing is due to simple POV myopia, or is indicative of other players using non-dilithium warp drives. But if the latter, we probably have to assume that everybody but the Federation is a bit player to begin with, in this particular neighborhood. Which is eminently possible, if every former great power has been absorbed into the Federation in the intervening millennium!

Sahil's backstory, as relayed to us by Burnham, really covers it all: alternatives to dilithium warp exist, but they just plain aren't good enough. They may be superior in all other respects, but they can't be relied on, for reasons we don't need to know about. Much like there are dozens of ways to make automobiles go, but all but one or perhaps at most two of those are unreliable...

Timo Saloniemi
 
On the subject of benamite crystals... as you said, it wasn't a problem of MAKING them... Kim just said it would take years to make new ones (and they degrade quickly after use).
However, we're talking 810 years after Voyager returned home.
Starfleet would have probably been able to not only synthesize benamite crystals in large quantities and much shorter time frames only 5 to 10 years after Voyager returned (a process which would have to undergo VAST improvements by the 25th century alone... nevermind the 32nd), but also find a process to recrystalize them (basically, your average Starfleet ship from say mid/late 25th century alreadty shouldn't have a problem in making new benamite crystals ridiculously fast and would probably have a process to recrystalise them too.

Come 32nd century, this process apparently doesn't exist... which is stretching it to the seams.

The only possible explanation is that Starfleet ships and bases had proprietary access to QS technology and benamite crystal production and recrystalization technology... civilians might need to rely on those sources which would be easily accessible throughout Federation... but its hard to imagine that every ship with QS capability (which Booker's ship had) wouldn't have the ability to make benamite crystals in a flash and recrystalize them.
There's a good point, the crystals might take a certain amount of time no matter what, like whisky. So the only way around a 20 year aging is to make big enough batches from the start every year for 20 years to create a big enough, steady supply. Because the supply has a 20 year lead time scaling it up in response to events isn't feasible, it has to be done with careful planning. But like you write, those are limitations which might be circumvented with over 8 centuries of research.

The timeline we get seems to be this.
  1. galaxy experiences peak dilithium
  2. alternatives are pursued
  3. nothing works, translated to: nothing radical is effectively pursued, because efficiency gains and recrystallization are seen as sufficient
  4. by the time other drives would move from the experimental phase, casual time machines are invented and supplant warp drive
  5. the Federation spreads just about everywhere in the Milky Way and virtually standardizes faster than light travel
  6. the Temporal Cold War ends and time machines are banned with no non-temporal faster than light drives ready to go, everything relies on warp and dilithium again
  7. the Federation works on non-warp faster than light again, but dilithium is rendered inert on a galactic scale
  8. the Federation is fractured, research into non-warp non-temporal alternative engines falters without interstellar support
I think this is a stretch because I think too much time passes between each phase for things like quantum slipstream not to get finished.
 
There's a good point, the crystals might take a certain amount of time no matter what, like whisky. So the only way around a 20 year aging is to make big enough batches from the start every year for 20 years to create a big enough, steady supply. Because the supply has a 20 year lead time scaling it up in response to events isn't feasible, it has to be done with careful planning. But like you write, those are limitations which might be circumvented with over 8 centuries of research.

The timeline we get seems to be this.
  1. galaxy experiences peak dilithium
  2. alternatives are pursued
  3. nothing works, translated to: nothing radical is effectively pursued, because efficiency gains and recrystallization are seen as sufficient
  4. by the time other drives would move from the experimental phase, casual time machines are invented and supplant warp drive
  5. the Federation spreads just about everywhere in the Milky Way and virtually standardizes faster than light travel
  6. the Temporal Cold War ends and time machines are banned with no non-temporal faster than light drives ready to go, everything relies on warp and dilithium again
  7. the Federation works on non-warp faster than light again, but dilithium is rendered inert on a galactic scale
  8. the Federation is fractured, research into non-warp non-temporal alternative engines falters without interstellar support
I think this is a stretch because I think too much time passes between each phase for things like quantum slipstream not to get finished.

Excatly.
The amount of time which passed is just way too huge to think at least QS functionality and operability (not to mention its minor limitations as they existed in the late 24th century) wouldn't have been addressed in the 100-200 years since Voyager returned... nevermind 810 years - same applies to development of other power sources (I simply find it inconceivable that the Federation would stick to M/AM for power generation and dilithium for regulating those reactions for longer than 200 years - the Romulans didn't stick to that method after TOS era and invented forced quantum singularity power generation - which in itself is amazing for the Romulans... but then, how did they manage to get this technology operational and the Federation with over 150 different alien species cooperating couldn't? That alone stretches credibility... not to mention the fact that the Federation knew about this technology as of late TNG and could have made this power generation themselves by early/mid/ 25th century just from knowing it existed).

Still, the way you described the timeline progression is what I had in mind too... but (as we both noted), it stretches credibility into 'ludicrous' with sheer amount of time that passed and all the different technologies we saw Starfleet acquired in 23rd and 24th centuries.
 
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Could it be likely that that the singularity drives leak radiation,that over time will be deadly to the crew? I cannot believe that someone in the Federation could not make one for Starfleet.
 
Maybe it was like the nuclear reactors of US vs. Russian Subs. Us was all safe and tidy where Russians didn't really care about radiation leakage and people died early on.
Respect for Rickover for that.

Ask for warp.. what about batteries? A lot of shuttles only use batteries not warp reactors for when they use warp drive
 
Could it be likely that that the singularity drives leak radiation,that over time will be deadly to the crew? I cannot believe that someone in the Federation could not make one for Starfleet.
Maybe it was like the nuclear reactors of US vs. Russian Subs. Us was all safe and tidy where Russians didn't really care about radiation leakage and people died early on.
Respect for Rickover for that.
The problem I have with this kind of explanation is it requires us to invent why a thing failed without any hint, and not why something succeeded. It's prove a negative, rather than prove a positive. Besides, we've had Starfleet personnel on Romulan ships dealing with their reactor and nothing was said about dangerous radiation levels.

Voyager did bake a lot of handicaps into adapting the various drives we saw, but we did see them working, they are all effective. Once a technology is known to be physically possible in real life it is only a matter of time until someone else reinvents it, even if through no other way than throwing money and minds at it until it works if it is thought to hold value.

I would assume we would see giant fusion reactor warp ships if nothing else is really viable, maybe even huge Dune style carrier ships transporting sub-warp ships.

I think the real problem is despite the writers wanting to explore the Trek future they aren't willing to truly make something different and explore its implications. They want post apocalyptic Federation space with none of the leg work to fit the Late Bronze Age Collapse into a nearly post scarcity society on Trek's terms. Who cares if warp travel goes from common to rare, because that's how it was in TOS anyway.

A reduction in warp ships should mean a retraction of practical control, but not a complete collapse, especially not with superior subspace radio, and especially not if the government system is well designed. The US was designed to function in the 18th century, when it took months to get anywhere. If we lost all forms of rapid remote communication and rapid transportation we could still carry out elections. We might starve to death too, but that doesn't apply to a society with replicators.

Ask for warp.. what about batteries? A lot of shuttles only use batteries not warp reactors for when they use warp drive
I don't think we've ever heard of shuttle batteries, though I could be wrong. The runabout in TNG definitely uses antimatter as fuel.

I guess the TOS shuttle is battery powered given it can run off phaser batteries, but that might be more a function of an impulse engine ultimately being driven by electricty?
 
Could it be likely that that the singularity drives leak radiation,that over time will be deadly to the crew? I cannot believe that someone in the Federation could not make one for Starfleet.

If that was the case, the Romulans would most certainly not use the technology as they would know if such a side-effect existed.
 
But Star Trek is about Kirk, Spock, the Klingons and the Enterprise, and every show needs at least three out of the four in order to survive. Oh, if just ENT had been able to somehow involve Kirk or Spock, too...

Timo Saloniemi
TNG, DS9, and VOY were great without them.
 
Subspace radio works if the relays are maintained. If they ran on M/AM reactors or were looted for parts,or lack of galactic Co-operation in maintaining local relays, they the network is spotty to only has limited range.
 
Subspace radio works if the relays are maintained. If they ran on M/AM reactors or were looted for parts,or lack of galactic Co-operation in maintaining local relays, they the network is spotty to only has limited range.

Subspace communications work without relay stations... it just takes a while for the message to get through.

As far as I know (although I could be mistaken), the subspace relay stations didn't use M/AM for power generation - they had a power generator yes, but not antimatter (and certainly no dilithium).

Much like DS9, starbases and smaller stations would likely use highly advanced versions of fusion or another power source the Federation invented to replace fusion which did not require M/AM or dilithium.

The relay station which Sadhil was posted on suffered a reactor breach of some kind a long time ago. It wasn't mentioned WHAT KIND of reactor it was though (nor that it had happened during the Burn).
Also, with programmable matter in the mix, why didn't the station self-repair itself by the time we saw that scene in the first place?
It seems to have adequate amount of power for short range sensors (600 Ly's radius), life support and (presumbaly) food and other basic necessities which kept Sadhil alive and well - programmable matter also works on demand creating matter as needed for Sahil... so... what gives?
 
I don't think we've ever heard of shuttle batteries, though I could be wrong. The runabout in TNG definitely uses antimatter as fuel.

I guess the TOS shuttle is battery powered given it can run off phaser batteries, but that might be more a function of an impulse engine ultimately being driven by electricty?
From The Galileo Seven:
SPOCK: Mister Scott, how much power do we have left in the ship's batteries?
SCOTT: They're in good shape, but they won't lift us off, if that's what you're getting at.
SPOCK: Will they electrify the exterior of this ship?
SCOTT: That they will, Mister Spock!
(He dashes to the rear compartment and puts on big rubber gloves)
SPOCK: Get to the centre of the ship. Don't touch the plates. Be sure you're insulated. Stand by. Are you ready, Scott?
SCOTT: Ready, Mister Spock.
SPOCK: All right. Go. (Scott uses a spanner or something to short out the battery connections) Again! Again!
(It goes quiet and still outside)
SCOTT: I daren't use any more. Not and be sure of ignition.
SPOCK: I believe we've used enough. Mister Scott. I suggest you continue draining the phasers.
The TOS shuttlecraft batteries are used for ignition of the drive system, but cannot run the drive system.

I think that draining the phasers is not powering the electrical system, i.e. what the batteries do, rather they are somehow "energizing" or maybe "converting" the "alternate" fuel, or maybe is the alternate fuel drained from inside the phasers to be used in the main reactor to power the drive system. I any event, the amount of fuel created using the phasers was very small; only enough to achieve orbit.
 
And it wasn't the same as the main fuel for a distinct reason: Scotty never repaired the leak that prevented main fuel from being contained within the system!

TNG, DS9, and VOY were great without them.

All of them were pretty much floundering before they started leaning on the Kirk/Spock/Klingons crutch...

Timo Saloniemi
 
All of them were pretty much floundering before they started leaning on the Kirk/Spock/Klingons crutch...

Timo Saloniemi
You mean TNG was bad before Unification, DS9 was bad before Trials, and VOY was bad before ...which episode?
 
Or a Voyager?

You mean TNG was bad before Unification, DS9 was bad before Trials, and VOY was bad before ...which episode?

Both TNG and DS9 leaned on Worf like he were a crutch. Both also did nostalgia episodes on the TOS leads, even if only after having been saved by the Klingons. VOY was bad before and after, but it did have a resident Klingon and kept name-dropping the TOS heroes from the same point on as the other two shows, around third season. Which wasn't the only reason there was a fourth season, but may well have been why there was a fifth.

Timo Saloniemi
 
Both TNG and DS9 leaned on Worf like he were a crutch. Both also did nostalgia episodes on the TOS leads, even if only after having been saved by the Klingons. VOY was bad before and after, but it did have a resident Klingon and kept name-dropping the TOS heroes from the same point on as the other two shows, around third season. Which wasn't the only reason there was a fourth season, but may well have been why there was a fifth.

Timo Saloniemi
Your statement was: every show needs a combination of at least 3 from this list (Kirk, Spock, Klingons, Enterprise) to survive.
Then TNG failed, DS9 failed, and VOY failed. Right? :p
 
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