Re-evaluating Problematic Characters

[CuriousCaitian]

Even Worf himself isn't as "Honorable" as you'd think a person so devoted to it should be... when it comes to his parenting. His kid's mother is half human, & was raising him to value that part of himself, (Maybe even favor it) & she probably took to Worf in the 1st place specifically because he was raised on Earth, among humans, & chooses to work & associate himself with them routinely, & value their ways to some degree. There may have been no one better suited, in the entire galaxy, for her to have a family with, when you boil it down. After all, if Worf is so hellbent on Klingon ways why the hell doesn't he just go there & get with it wholly? It's because there IS another part to Worf, the part that wants Starfleet & their ideals. We just never get browbeat with that aspect a tenth as much.

So then she dies & how does he handle it? He goes out of his way to literally shun & eradicate any involvement he could have in continuing to keep that spirit alive for his son. He by all accounts, literally dishonors his son & son's mother by disregarding or disavowing her wishes, as if the kid would suffer greatly by not being a proper Klingon, when he himself is living proof that it need not be that way. For god sake, he did his kid more wrong than Sarek. He's a walking contradiction, & not a very interesting one

The TNG Guide describes Worf as being proud of his Klingon heritage, but also intelligent and open-minded enough to accept multiple points of view, but in the show he was mostly stubborn, blinkered, and repetitive. The K'Ehleyr and Alexander saga is one of the worst examples, not least since K'Ehleyr was a great character who deserved better; Birthright, as another thread argues, is also poor for him.

I think the idea was that a lot of Worf's pride was tied into him proving that he's a Real, True, Full-blooded Klingon, not diluted or compromised in any way by his adoption into a human family, and human society. Not a bad concept, in theory - personal conflict and growth to potentially be had - but in practice it was usually executed with all the subtlety of a painstik upside the head and flattened him out as a character.

And, as we keep coming back to, that the culture he so championed was so ill-defined and one-dimensional as to not warrant or justify such devotion, didn't help in the slightest.

The walking contradiction thing sometimes irks me about Riker too. As written, he's supposed to be the every man, congenial best friend of the crew type guy, but because the actor was so much better at playing something quite different, he ends up more often being difficult, brooding, hardheaded, even egotistical & somewhat elitist at times. Now admittedly, THAT Riker is way more interesting of a character, but they really struggled to reconcile those conflicting representations.

Whenever I hear Data talk about Riker's easy going nature in Data's Day, I think "When?" when the hell is that guy easy going? It seemed, especially after season 2, way more like he was only easy going when he'd spent years getting to know someone closely. Otherwise, he could routinely be a big fat dick lol

At first, I struggled to see why you'd describe Riker that way, but then I remembered how he reacted to Tam Elbrun, and Ro Laren, and his own father, and especially Captain Jellico. I don't agree he was more often brooding and difficult, but he did behave that way on multiple occasions, and it could feel kinda forced. Seems only fair to mention that it could work, too; his mood at the end of The Vengeance Factor was fully in keeping with events, and how could he have been anything else in Frame of Mind?

Not arguing the contradiction in this, of course, and it did blemish a generally, for me at least, entertaining and engaging character.

 

[Mojochi]

At first, I struggled to see why you'd describe Riker that way, but then I remembered how he reacted to Tam Elbrun, and Ro Laren, and his own father, and especially Captain Jellico. I don't agree he was more often brooding and difficult, but he did behave that way on multiple occasions, and it could feel kinda forced. Seems only fair to mention that it could work, too; his mood at the end of The Vengeance Factor was fully in keeping with events, and how could he have been anything else in Frame of Mind?

Not arguing the contradiction in this, of course, and it did blemish a generally, for me at least, entertaining and engaging character.

I also tend to include his stretches as captain as evidence of his general character, & while I wouldn't call him a bad captain, because he has some good moments, the majority of time we see him in command, he is certainly not at all the guy Picard describes to Kolrami, for example, jovial & approachable etc... Mostly the captain Riker we see is a moody pain in the butt to everyone, & more than once has to be addressed about it, by Troi, or even Guinan. I'd say Peak Performance was in fact the last time we ever saw the Riker from the origin story. After that... no more Mr. Nice Guy.

 

[Oddish]

Birthright was a laugh out loud dumb as a post episode. Worf, raised by humans, a Klingon culture guru?

That effort should have been cut short with Part 1. The "Data dreams" plot made a great episode.

 

[CuriousCaitian]

I also tend to include his stretches as captain as evidence of his general character, & while I wouldn't call him a bad captain, because he has some good moments, the majority of time we see him in command, he is certainly not at all the guy Picard describes to Kolrami, for example, jovial & approachable etc... Mostly the captain Riker we see is a moody pain in the butt to everyone, & more than once has to be addressed about it, by Troi, or even Guinan. I'd say Peak Performance was in fact the last time we ever saw the Riker from the origin story. After that... no more Mr. Nice Guy.

Next time I watch through the series, I shall have to pay more attention to the good Commander, see if I concur with this. It's already chiming a little, mind, but I can't, as I type this, pin down any particular episodes to refer to.

Birthright was a laugh out loud dumb as a post episode. Worf, raised by humans, a Klingon culture guru?

That effort should have been cut short with Part 1. The "Data dreams" plot made a great episode.

Agreed; Data's dream exploration was a far more interesting story, to the point it's the only aspect of the two-parter I usually watch.

Your comment sparks a thought: what if Worf's concepts of Klingon culture had been acknowledged as erroneous, as some distance from the reality? It's a likely thing to happen given his upbringing by a different culture, by people looking from the outside in. This episode, for one, could have been more successful if it focused on his misconceptions being challenged in an unlikely fashion. That said, I've an inkling this approach might have been touched on once or twice in the show, but no more than that.

 

[Orphalesion]

Birthright was a laugh out loud dumb as a post episode. Worf, raised by humans, a Klingon culture guru?

Right? I swear half of the time the writers forgot that he was supposed to be raised by humans (not that it ever added much to his character...)

 

[Bry_Sinclair]

Worf would've worked better is he was a Klingon raised by Klingons serving in the Klingon military and sent to the E-D as a special emissary, who learned how to live among humans and ultimately came to question his place in life and decided he wanted more from life than just being a warrior, so ultimately decides to leave the Empire behind and side with the Federation (maybe even pursuing a deep love of science that could never really voice back on Qo'noS).

 

[Qonundrum]

Finally making my first stab at a thread; hopefully it doesn't go the way of Worf's dignity every time a hostile alien invades the bridge.

Looks like a fun one!

There are a few recurring characters in TNG that, to one degree or another, are considered problematic, even derided and dismissed by some. I thought it might be interesting to look, with as open a mind as possible, at these characters, see if the dislike is truly justified, try to identify the source of genuine problems, and what could have been done to address those issues. I must stress: this is purely one person's opinion and speculations. To start with, and as an example, I give you Ship's Counsellor Deanna Troi.

That very title is the root of the trouble with Troi for many; why does a ship even need a counsellor, let alone one that sits next to the Captain on the bridge? Department of Redundancy Department, particularly on a ship full of perfectly flawless people, right? Well, no.

Maybe to help with other civilizations, or at least to give Picard a different sort of card counting, since he has above playing poker with the rest of the bridge crew. Not that Picard actually did that sort of thing, but Troi makes it possible. Just being there and not using her as such only bolsters the notion of "a boatload of perfect people".

Emotional and psychological well-being is easily as important as physical well-being, arguably even more so, given how strongly the former can impact the latter (as an anxiety sufferer, I can vouch for that). That Starfleet acknowledge and respect that so much is likely a big reason why the crews are so well-sorted - though not, I would suggest, perfect; they made mistakes, and doubted themselves, and struggled with things, just didn't have many of the pointless hang-ups we do - and a counsellor so visibly at the heart of ship's operations is a pretty clear statement. Gene was actually kinda ahead of the curve on that one.

Or preventative maintenance, perhaps. "The Arsenal of Freedom" and "Disaster" both give Troi something halfway decent since she can't be figuring out nonhumanoid aliens and/or telling Picard what a cup of hot tea is every week. The crew are exemplar in their fields, but when having to take over they're still human. How they react is just more controlled. That said, Gene's ideas weren't consistently handled despite it all, and were sometimes more of a hindrance bigger hurdle to good storytelling.

There's also the useful perspective a counsellor could provide in many situations: how the people involved are likely to behave, how they'd likely react to you, and how you could adjust your approach to be most effective. This gains another layer in Troi's case courtesy of her empathic abilities, which can provide instant feedback and context, and in several episodes actually do. All of this is useful narratively, but especially the latter; she can tell you someone's being deceitful, but not why; you know something's up, but not what, helping to advance the story without giving too much away.

Going back to my poker metaphor, Picard - almost consistently in the series and the worst examples of his violating that are in episodes so bad I'm not going to mention their names but they're pretty much all in early season one... - knows his goal is to be diplomatic and not manipulate. This reminds me of that season 3 episode where she jumps into bed with the master manipulator Devinoni Ral, who seems to be the evil version of Troi and Picard lumped into one.

Also, Troi should have married Barclay but that's not important right now.

All that considered, I'd argue that the idea of Troi wasn't bad, it was - and if this thread continues I don't doubt I'll be saying this a lot - the execution that caused issues. Something, or many things, got lost in translation somewhere, and we ended up with a frustratingly mishandled and inconsistent character. She had her moments, and anchored some strong episodes, but she was also saddled with some pretty poor ones (The Child comes readily to mind) and had thuddingly unsubtle moments ("I feel great happiness!"). Many of the writers just didn't seem to know what to do with her.

^^this

Most of the time nobody really delved into what she could do, either because they ran out of time or were lazy or didn't know how to fit her in right or didn't want to overuse her abilities in the established ways that worked.

Beyond what I've already outlined, something that may well have helped was making her the head of a full department, one with a broader remit than just the psychological. The show itself did something towards that by putting her in charge of education in later seasons, and I'm sure broader logistics regarding the families on board could be folded in, as well as strong ties to Medical. Emotions are intangible, difficult to quantify, so give her something tangible and more accessible as a foundation of sorts. Also a different title, maybe, though what that could be...

Especially as Guinan pretty much got what otherwise could have been Troi, seguing in Troi being a teacher made more sense if they took it all to that conclusion.

Ultimately, though, a lot of it, I believe, comes down to this: if you're unwilling to accept emotions matter, then you're highly unlikely to accept a character focused around them, irregardless of their execution. Troi was an interesting idea, ahead of her time, but poorly realised, and possibly doomed never to truly work.

Pretty much.

Fascinated to see if people chime with this, what other perspectives are thrown in, and if we can get a nice discussion going. If this thread clicks enough with people, I do have two more characters in mind, and if any others occur, feel free to say. :-)

The post clicked well for me for sure. Thanks!

 

[saladdays]

Birthright was a laugh out loud dumb as a post episode. Worf, raised by humans, a Klingon culture guru?

I think the writers went overboard a little, but I've always felt that his being raised by humans always made him obsessed with learning everything about Klingon traditions and culture, perhaps even more so than your average Klingon. Like he's "book smart," but not "street smart." He has a lot of knowledge of what he thinks Klingons should be like, but not enough immersion in their culture to know how Klingons sometimes actually act.

 

[Orphalesion]

There has always been a notable difference in the way Worf act vs. how other Klingons act, true.

However I still think connecting him to humans was unnecessary. One idea I once had with Klingons in general is that after the events of TUC (I know that wasn't established yet by the time of early TNG, but whatever) the Empire could have broken up into several parts.
One part was annexed by the Romulans.
One part remained independent and became an ally to the Federation.
One part remained independent and try to hold on to the old animosity, in case they need to bring back Klingons as enemies.
And one part actually joined the Federation, bringing with it a rather large Klingon population that, over the next decades was very eager to integrate itself into Federation culture and scattered across all of Federation space.

Worf could have been from that last group. That would still leave him a fish out of water with both humans and Klingons from the Empire. Plus it gives Worf an additional facet to his character; that of a second-generation "immigrant".
(Idk I just find it weird how in earlier Trek shows all the alien main characters needed either to be half-humans or raised by humans or whatever.
If I'm not mistaken DS9 had the first alien main characters who had no familial ties to humanity.)

Following that K'ehlyr could also be one of the Klingons who grew up as Federation citizens, instead of being a Half-Klingon. Just one who doesn't romanticize the Empire and its culture like Worf does and who has instead chosen to immerse herself in Human/Federation culture.

 

[CuriousCaitian]

Looks like a fun one!

Certainly can't complain about how it's gone so far.

Or preventative maintenance, perhaps. "The Arsenal of Freedom" and "Disaster" both give Troi something halfway decent since she can't be figuring out nonhumanoid aliens and/or telling Picard what a cup of hot tea is every week. The crew are exemplar in their fields, but when having to take over they're still human. How they react is just more controlled. That said, Gene's ideas weren't consistently handled despite it all, and were sometimes more of a hindrance bigger hurdle to good storytelling.

Good point! One of the reasons I like Arsenal of Freedom is how much it gives Troi and Geordi to do, and it does neatly demonstrate the support role she could play in a tense, difficult situation. That it guest-starred Vincent Schiavelli didn't hurt, either! Certainly a facet they could have done more with.

Going back to my poker metaphor, Picard - almost consistently in the series and the worst examples of his violating that are in episodes so bad I'm not going to mention their names but they're pretty much all in early season one... - knows his goal is to be diplomatic and not manipulate. This reminds me of that season 3 episode where she jumps into bed with the master manipulator Devinoni Ral, who seems to be the evil version of Troi and Picard lumped into one.

The Price, an episode I honestly struggle with, partly because Matt McCoy plays Ral perhaps a bit too well, given how much I want to jab sharp things in his eyes, and partly because his 'relationship' with Troi makes me queasy. Exactly how consenting was it, given his abilities and demonstrable lack of moral decency? Not a good ep for the Counsellor, I don't believe, and a clear example of mishandling her. I suppose she had to be neutralised somehow for the ep to work, but surely they could have come up with a better way?

There has always been a notable difference in the way Worf act vs. how other Klingons act, true.

However I still think connecting him to humans was unnecessary. One idea I once had with Klingons in general is that after the events of TUC (I know that wasn't established yet by the time of early TNG, but whatever) the Empire could have broken up into several parts.
One part was annexed by the Romulans.
One part remained independent and became an ally to the Federation.
One part remained independent and try to hold on to the old animosity, in case they need to bring back Klingons as enemies.
And one part actually joined the Federation, bringing with it a rather large Klingon population that, over the next decades was very eager to integrate itself into Federation culture and scattered across all of Federation space.

Worf could have been from that last group. That would still leave him a fish out of water with both humans and Klingons from the Empire. Plus it gives Worf an additional facet to his character; that of a second-generation "immigrant".
(Idk I just find it weird how in earlier Trek shows all the alien main characters needed either to be half-humans or raised by humans or whatever.
If I'm not mistaken DS9 had the first alien main characters who had no familial ties to humanity.)

Following that K'ehlyr could also be one of the Klingons who grew up as Federation citizens, instead of being a Half-Klingon. Just one who doesn't romanticize the Empire and its culture like Worf does and who has instead chosen to immerse herself in Human/Federation culture.

I like this. A lot. Gives the Klingons, and by extension Worf, a lot more variety and dimensionality, and opens up a world of narrative possibilities. The tension between the parts of the Empire is ripe for exploration, not least in how it would affect wider galactic relations. My story-telling senses are tingling to this, for sure!

As to the need for human ties, I think that relates to a wider, irritatingly persistent assumption that we humans can only properly relate to and connect with other humans, an assuption especially prevalent in Hollywood. That we've been anthropomorphising things since we started painting on cave walls, and can easily love the likes of Rocket, Groot, ET, G'Kar and Dukat apparently counts for nothing. You can probably tell this annoys me. :-p

 

[Silvercrest]

Riker seemed to behave that way most often when he felt threatened by the other person, or when they were too much like him, or when he felt threatened BECAUSE they were too much like him. (Shelby, Sam Lavelle, and of course Thomas Riker.)

It's been suggested that Picard should've been promoted to Admiral after BOBW and that Riker should've been captain. I would've liked to see that. Sir Patrick wouldn't even need to leave the show, if the Enterprise became his flagship. It'd solve the problem of Riker's static career ... actually, the show would've taken on even more of the intended "Phase II" dynamic.
It also would've solved the problem of why everyone keeps calling the Enterprise the "flagship" when it clearly isn't one.

 

[Farscape One]

The TNG Guide describes Worf as being proud of his Klingon heritage, but also intelligent and open-minded enough to accept multiple points of view, but in the show he was mostly stubborn, blinkered, and repetitive. The K'Ehleyr and Alexander saga is one of the worst examples, not least since K'Ehleyr was a great character who deserved better; Birthright, as another thread argues, is also poor for him.

I think the idea was that a lot of Worf's pride was tied into him proving that he's a Real, True, Full-blooded Klingon, not diluted or compromised in any way by his adoption into a human family, and human society. Not a bad concept, in theory - personal conflict and growth to potentially be had - but in practice it was usually executed with all the subtlety of a painstik upside the head and flattened him out as a character.

And, as we keep coming back to, that the culture he so championed was so ill-defined and one-dimensional as to not warrant or justify such devotion, didn't help in the slightest.



At first, I struggled to see why you'd describe Riker that way, but then I remembered how he reacted to Tam Elbrun, and Ro Laren, and his own father, and especially Captain Jellico. I don't agree he was more often brooding and difficult, but he did behave that way on multiple occasions, and it could feel kinda forced. Seems only fair to mention that it could work, too; his mood at the end of The Vengeance Factor was fully in keeping with events, and how could he have been anything else in Frame of Mind?

Not arguing the contradiction in this, of course, and it did blemish a generally, for me at least, entertaining and engaging character.

Regarding Riker's behavior to the listed examples...

Tam Elbrun... I can see him being harsh with him because he was responsible for the deaths of a few friends from the Academy. And Tam didn't come across all that well, either, so I think it was deserved.

Kyle Riker... he basically abandoned his son. Why should Will be nice to him? (And this is coming from someone whose own so-called father knew exactly where he lived his entire life, yet never bothered to call on a birthday, send a postcard, or any kind of acknowledgement of existence.) Frankly, Kyle got off easy. He should have decked him on sight.

Ro Laren... she came aboard with everyone knowing she got 8 officers killed. She also had difficulty with authority that wasn't Picard. As XO, it was Riker's job to keep her in line, and she was very willful. I can see him getting frustrated by her.

Captain Jellico... this is actually the one time I agree he was not being a good XO. He had some good points, but he came off badly.

 

[Mister Spock]

Some of Worf's best episodes came when he went over to Deep Space 9. In some ways, he fit in better over there.

Agreed. The DS9 crew were more of a misfit bunch - different backgrounds, different agendas, different attitudes etc. - and Worf was more at home there than on the Enterprise. Plus, being in a stationary location, the Klingon stuff coming to him rather than the other way around felt more natural.

 

[Mister Spock]

It's been suggested that Picard should've been promoted to Admiral after BOBW and that Riker should've been captain. I would've liked to see that. Sir Patrick wouldn't even need to leave the show, if the Enterprise became his flagship. It'd solve the problem of Riker's static career ... actually, the show would've taken on even more of the intended "Phase II" dynamic. It also would've solved the problem of why everyone keeps calling the Enterprise the "flagship" when it clearly isn't one.

Agreed. We're told that Wolf 359 left a bit of a vacuum in Starfleets ranks, so you would assume that a lot of captains would find themselves promoted or reassigned.

The Enterprise D never really did a whole lot of exploring, and wasn't on any specific mission. Half their time seemed to be spent holding diplomatic functions, signing peace treaties, investigating mysteries and transporting important cargo and passengers. So how about if they retooled it for the fourth season: Admiral Picard is assigned to Starbase 123 and Captain Riker and the Enterprise act as his personal troubleshooters. He sends them out on missions and operations, and report back to him.

 

[at Quark's]

It's been suggested that Picard should've been promoted to Admiral after BOBW and that Riker should've been captain. I would've liked to see that. Sir Patrick wouldn't even need to leave the show, if the Enterprise became his flagship. It'd solve the problem of Riker's static career ... actually, the show would've taken on even more of the intended "Phase II" dynamic.
It also would've solved the problem of why everyone keeps calling the Enterprise the "flagship" when it clearly isn't one.

It would have introduced some problems for Picard's role on screen, though. As an admiral, I'd suppose Picard wouldn't be expected to be involved in the day-to-day affairs of running the ship. Given that most episodes would be about the adventure of the week though, Picard would only get involved in the really high profile stuff, such as (for example) the missions confronting the Romulans or the Cardassians.

 

[Silvercrest]

True! But I'd say they could get away with Picard doing an "Admiral Kirk" and commanding his flagship personally for up to 50% of those adventure-of-the week episodes before it became too awkward. Certainly Riker wouldn't be as resentful as Decker was.

YMMV on whether it would work for Picard to be shown at Starbase Whatever for the other 50% (separate from the rest of the cast), or simply having a reduced screen presence.

 

[Mark 2000]

Worf would've worked better is he was a Klingon raised by Klingons serving in the Klingon military and sent to the E-D as a special emissary, who learned how to live among humans and ultimately came to question his place in life and decided he wanted more from life than just being a warrior, so ultimately decides to leave the Empire behind and side with the Federation (maybe even pursuing a deep love of science that could never really voice back on Qo'noS).

I agree with chucking Worf's orphan backstory. I'd personally be way happier if the Klingons stayed a Federation member state as a clearly were in the first two seasons until they suddenly weren't in Sins of the Father. Worf could have simply been the first Klingon in the new combined star service.