Re-evaluating Problematic Characters
- Thread starter CuriousCaitian
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My feelings about Wesley follow a bell curve. Up until he leaves for the academy I find him horrible at first, but gradually getting better over time, especially as they scale back the "saves the ship" episodes. I like him in "The Game", and while I don't like his actions in "The First Duty", it may be the most realistic portrayal of him in the entire series.
Then there's his appearance in "Journey's End", and as far as I'm concerned, the less said about that the better.
I'd love to see adult Wesley, Jake and Nog get together in a bar and ruminate on their experiences and others' perceptions of them. As another poster said above, I think Jake's portrayal may very likely have been helped by the fact that he was shown interacting regularly with at least one other person in his own age bracket.
If they were all similar ages and met as children though, I think Jake and Nog would have found Wesley as insufferable as many viewers did. And you know, maybe there was an opportunity there...to show that one reason why Wesley gravitated toward the senior staff as his friends was because he'd been rejected by people his own age.
Then there's his appearance in "Journey's End", and as far as I'm concerned, the less said about that the better.
I'd love to see adult Wesley, Jake and Nog get together in a bar and ruminate on their experiences and others' perceptions of them. As another poster said above, I think Jake's portrayal may very likely have been helped by the fact that he was shown interacting regularly with at least one other person in his own age bracket.
If they were all similar ages and met as children though, I think Jake and Nog would have found Wesley as insufferable as many viewers did. And you know, maybe there was an opportunity there...to show that one reason why Wesley gravitated toward the senior staff as his friends was because he'd been rejected by people his own age.
For me, the biggest problem with the 'Wesley Saves The Ship' episodes was that they usually required the entire bridge crew's IQs to plummet, Datalore being a prime example. They didn't just hurt Wesley, they hurt pretty much every character. I'd forgotten When the Bough Breaks; it's certainly proof there were better ways to make him an active participant in resolving the dilemma of the week.
The Wesley-Tasha dynamic could well have been fruitful, not least since Yar sorely needed some substantive to work with. We'll likely come to her later, if the thread's still active.
I recall Wes having a romantic interlude with the titular Dauphin, and he was clearly involved with Robin at the end of The Game, but those were flickers that did nothing of real value. Certainly he needed people his own age to interact with, and that would have been a nice way in to an aspect I don't think was ever truly taken advantage of: the civilians on board. I honestly liked the less militaristic approach, and sorely wish the writers had engaged with it more.
Dial back Crusher's prodigy status, maybe to just the odd useful flash of insight, don't cram him into every episode, make him more of a conduit to the civilian aspects of life on board the Ent-D, and maybe we'd have something.
The Wesley-Tasha dynamic could well have been fruitful, not least since Yar sorely needed some substantive to work with. We'll likely come to her later, if the thread's still active.
I recall Wes having a romantic interlude with the titular Dauphin, and he was clearly involved with Robin at the end of The Game, but those were flickers that did nothing of real value. Certainly he needed people his own age to interact with, and that would have been a nice way in to an aspect I don't think was ever truly taken advantage of: the civilians on board. I honestly liked the less militaristic approach, and sorely wish the writers had engaged with it more.
Dial back Crusher's prodigy status, maybe to just the odd useful flash of insight, don't cram him into every episode, make him more of a conduit to the civilian aspects of life on board the Ent-D, and maybe we'd have something.
Geordi could've been far more problematic if they'd left his role as pretty much a teacher who somehow happened to go on away missions all the time it could've been worse. On the bridge he had a role to play and was very prominent, putting him down in engineering gave the character more to do but also meant that he wasn't sitting right in front of the camera, and not being as big a personality as Data or Worf then he never really drew the attention below decks.
He's a tricky character as his career progression should've given him loads to do, but without any big traits then he really just ticked along, provided input when it was needed, had the odd episode about him, but never really flourished. Part of me wonders if he and Data shouldn't have been swapped, with Geordi being the Second Officer (either Operations or Science) and Data as the junior lieutenant at the conn (need to make Data 'younger' so that he was still new to Starfleet and humanity, so all his awkward understanding of humans and attempts to learn to be more like them makes a little more sense).
@CuriousCaitian I find Worf problematic as well (mainly because of all the attention that gave the Klingons which got very tiresome very quickly), but one of the biggest problematic characters I can think of is Riker. He was meant to be a young up-and-coming hotshot, but he gets to the E-D and just stalls. I get it, the Federation flagship is a huge feather in his cap and he can learn a lot from Picard, but the fact he was offered at least two different ships before the end of the second season does show that he really should've only been there for a year or two at best. I like the character, but like Geordi he doesn't have much in the way of defining traits, other than being a ladies man. If they'd decided he was only going to be about for three years maximum, then they could've either promoted Data (or Geordi in my alternate version) or introduced a new First Officer (such as Shelby) who could again just be there short term or see out the rest of the series then in All Good Things they announce they've accepted a promotion and the sea-based simulation could be for their transfer to their own ship.
Just some random thoughts I'm typing as they come to me.
He's a tricky character as his career progression should've given him loads to do, but without any big traits then he really just ticked along, provided input when it was needed, had the odd episode about him, but never really flourished. Part of me wonders if he and Data shouldn't have been swapped, with Geordi being the Second Officer (either Operations or Science) and Data as the junior lieutenant at the conn (need to make Data 'younger' so that he was still new to Starfleet and humanity, so all his awkward understanding of humans and attempts to learn to be more like them makes a little more sense).
@CuriousCaitian I find Worf problematic as well (mainly because of all the attention that gave the Klingons which got very tiresome very quickly), but one of the biggest problematic characters I can think of is Riker. He was meant to be a young up-and-coming hotshot, but he gets to the E-D and just stalls. I get it, the Federation flagship is a huge feather in his cap and he can learn a lot from Picard, but the fact he was offered at least two different ships before the end of the second season does show that he really should've only been there for a year or two at best. I like the character, but like Geordi he doesn't have much in the way of defining traits, other than being a ladies man. If they'd decided he was only going to be about for three years maximum, then they could've either promoted Data (or Geordi in my alternate version) or introduced a new First Officer (such as Shelby) who could again just be there short term or see out the rest of the series then in All Good Things they announce they've accepted a promotion and the sea-based simulation could be for their transfer to their own ship.
Just some random thoughts I'm typing as they come to me.
Wesley getting a friend group could also have been part of his personal arc. Like my impression of Wesley is that he's a boy who grew up rather lonely, with mostly/solely Starfleet Officers for company, since he was one of the few children who were allowed on board starships.
If I'm not mistaken the Galaxy class was the first time large amount of civilians including children and adolescents lived on board Starfleet vessels. So we could have seen Wesley slowly coming out of his shell with people of his own age.
(Plus it gives us the chance to see more hilarious 24th century civilian garb)
As for his "genius" part. Yeah scrap that mostly, just make him a very intelligent young man, maybe give him a knack for engineering and have him occasionally work in Engineering under Gerodie (who, like Tasha, is actually also young enough to be friends with Wesley)
The problem however with all of this is...can anybody think of many plots centered on the civilians or Wes and his friends in particular? Star Trek often strikes me as limited in the types of plots and characters it can use effectively by its own premise and execution. Like DS9 was uniquely suited for civilian characters, but how to put them into the "planet of the week" storylines TNG usually had, especially early on, or the Romulan/Klingon political intrigue it liked to focus on in the later years?
I mostly see this version of Wesley in B-Plots.
If I'm not mistaken the Galaxy class was the first time large amount of civilians including children and adolescents lived on board Starfleet vessels. So we could have seen Wesley slowly coming out of his shell with people of his own age.
(Plus it gives us the chance to see more hilarious 24th century civilian garb)
As for his "genius" part. Yeah scrap that mostly, just make him a very intelligent young man, maybe give him a knack for engineering and have him occasionally work in Engineering under Gerodie (who, like Tasha, is actually also young enough to be friends with Wesley)
The problem however with all of this is...can anybody think of many plots centered on the civilians or Wes and his friends in particular? Star Trek often strikes me as limited in the types of plots and characters it can use effectively by its own premise and execution. Like DS9 was uniquely suited for civilian characters, but how to put them into the "planet of the week" storylines TNG usually had, especially early on, or the Romulan/Klingon political intrigue it liked to focus on in the later years?
I mostly see this version of Wesley in B-Plots.
I was intending to take a character at a time to avoid confusion, but if we think we can juggle more than one, I'm certainly open to it. Maybe if we make sure to delineate who we're talking about. For example...
Wesley
You keep coming up with the goods, @Orphalesion! That expands the civilian aspect nicely, though, as you say, it isn't easy to include them in the TNG story style. I will throw out one of my favourite words: perspective. A civilian perspective on what was happening could have been interesting and maybe even narratively useful. TNG remains a big reason I'm so keen on multiple perspectives in my own writing - I actually enjoyed the meeting scenes, strangely enough - and one more couldn't have hurt. Wesley might have been key to that.
Geordi
Yeah, when I read the teacher detail in the Guide it made my brows rise. It just seemed...pointless. Geordi works largely thanks to LeVar Burton, I think, and I wonder what could have been had he gotten more substance. Swapping with Data is an intruiging possibility, certainly; you could argue, as much as we all love Data and Brent Spiner, the character was possibly given too much prominence.
Riker
Again, the actor made this character more than anything else, I'd say; Jonathan Frakes is just too good and too darn enjoyable to not register. His static nature was definitely a problem, as was his reduced stature in away missions post-BOBW. He does make you wonder if a rolling cast like @Bry_Sinclair suggested would have worked, but what show would have gone for that in the 80s? What show would go for that now?
Worf
Agreed on him. The TNG Klingons were too simplistic and too predictable, so you always knew what you were getting when they appeared, and Worf largely personified that, at least to me. Plus, I'm not particularly engaged by warrior cultures, and certainly not the kind of warrior cultures mainstream media usually went for.
Wesley
You keep coming up with the goods, @Orphalesion! That expands the civilian aspect nicely, though, as you say, it isn't easy to include them in the TNG story style. I will throw out one of my favourite words: perspective. A civilian perspective on what was happening could have been interesting and maybe even narratively useful. TNG remains a big reason I'm so keen on multiple perspectives in my own writing - I actually enjoyed the meeting scenes, strangely enough - and one more couldn't have hurt. Wesley might have been key to that.
Geordi
Yeah, when I read the teacher detail in the Guide it made my brows rise. It just seemed...pointless. Geordi works largely thanks to LeVar Burton, I think, and I wonder what could have been had he gotten more substance. Swapping with Data is an intruiging possibility, certainly; you could argue, as much as we all love Data and Brent Spiner, the character was possibly given too much prominence.
Riker
Again, the actor made this character more than anything else, I'd say; Jonathan Frakes is just too good and too darn enjoyable to not register. His static nature was definitely a problem, as was his reduced stature in away missions post-BOBW. He does make you wonder if a rolling cast like @Bry_Sinclair suggested would have worked, but what show would have gone for that in the 80s? What show would go for that now?
Worf
Agreed on him. The TNG Klingons were too simplistic and too predictable, so you always knew what you were getting when they appeared, and Worf largely personified that, at least to me. Plus, I'm not particularly engaged by warrior cultures, and certainly not the kind of warrior cultures mainstream media usually went for.
"Downgrading" his role to the conn officer might help with that, yes he'd still have all his abilities and would still be on away missions as needed, and have his stories about trying to understand humanity, but in a less senior position then he could be shown to grow a little more and develop over time.
Him being at the conn wouldn't change who the character fundamentally was (much the same way as Worf would develop had he remained the bridge floater had Yar lived past S1), as what makes the character stand out and what makes them resonate with fans is who they are and not what they do. Data could've been chief cook and bottle washer, but as someone who doesn't understand human behaviour, who wants to fit in better, who wants to better himself, he would still be someone fans would gravitate towards.
As far as I see it there's two main problems with Worf:
1) That basically his whole character revolves around how Klingon he is. With Troi it ridiculous how little we actually learned about Betazed and its culture. Worf had the opposite problem: he. never. ever. shut. up. about. Klingon. crap. And the bulk of his plots involved Klingons or Klingon "culture" It's basically the same as Chekov in the original series who wouldn't shut up about Russia.
2)How silly and one-note the Klingons were in 90s Trek. Their whole culture was about battle/blood/war/death and pain. And even a guy like Worf who was raised by humans has be absolutely in love with all of it.
So I think Worf would need to have more to his character that isn't connected to being a Klingon.
1) That basically his whole character revolves around how Klingon he is. With Troi it ridiculous how little we actually learned about Betazed and its culture. Worf had the opposite problem: he. never. ever. shut. up. about. Klingon. crap. And the bulk of his plots involved Klingons or Klingon "culture" It's basically the same as Chekov in the original series who wouldn't shut up about Russia.
2)How silly and one-note the Klingons were in 90s Trek. Their whole culture was about battle/blood/war/death and pain. And even a guy like Worf who was raised by humans has be absolutely in love with all of it.
So I think Worf would need to have more to his character that isn't connected to being a Klingon.
In a sense, the biggest problem with Riker is just that everyone liked him and everyone liked Picard. As a result, there were two unfortunate results... one, the excellent potential as a captain that Riker showed in BoBW isn't put to use for years. Two, Data (well liked as well) didn't get to take the next step in his evolution, except briefly under Ed Jellico.
Some of Worf's best episodes came when he went over to Deep Space 9. In some ways, he fit in better over there.
Some of Worf's best episodes came when he went over to Deep Space 9. In some ways, he fit in better over there.
Data was captain of the Sutherland in "Redemption II." That was a very big "next step" for him, career-wise.
Arguably, his biggest next steps were not in the advancement of his Starfleet career but rather the ways in which he progressed in his personal journey to become more human. He fathered a child in "The Offspring," and he found a mother of sorts in "Inheritance." He began experiencing the emotions in "Descent" that he had been denied in "Brothers," a process that was fully realized in the films. And he pushed the boundaries of his programming in various episodes throughout the series, such as in "The Most Toys" and "Clues."
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^ Before Data chose to sacrifice himself, I didn't necessarily see Data staying and making a long career for himself in Starfleet. I didn't dislike the idea of him becoming a physics professor as we saw in AGT.
Exactly what I was getting at. The focus wouldn't have been so much of a problem if TNG Klingon culture had some actual depth to it, some contrast and variety, not just head-bashing, honour-or-death war fanaticism. The really annoying bit is that their hypocrisy regarding honour had potential, but I don't think it was ever realised. Why did no-one ever ask what honour actually meant to Klingons? Why didn't Worf, who was better placed than most to?
This is what I meant by Data being too prominent. He got so much to do, so much more than anyone else, and for me it detracted from them, pushed them out a little. I can understand focusing on a character that worked from the start, and drew out better writing, and an actor in Spiner who seemed able to ace whatever got thrown at him, but if that means other characters who maybe aren't working so well get less attention, and thus may never properly click, then...
Of course, popularity's a factor, too. If a character is popular with viewers, they're likely to be focused on more and more, even if, in the long run, it could be pretty detrimental to the show. That, as I think @Oddish alluded, also can mean a character, such as Riker, doesn't grow like they should, as people just want them as they are.
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Ezri and Worf have a great conversation about Klingon society in which she calls out this hypocrisy.
And that's just one of the reasons why Ezri absolutely rocks.
But it's just one conversation, set against episode after episode that doesn't exploit or addresses that hypocrisy.
Even Worf himself isn't as "Honorable" as you'd think a person so devoted to it should be... when it comes to his parenting. His kid's mother is half human, & was raising him to value that part of himself, (Maybe even favor it) & she probably took to Worf in the 1st place specifically because he was raised on Earth, among humans, & chooses to work & associate himself with them routinely, & value their ways to some degree. There may have been no one better suited, in the entire galaxy, for her to have a family with, when you boil it down. After all, if Worf is so hellbent on Klingon ways why the hell doesn't he just go there & get with it wholly? It's because there IS another part to Worf, the part that wants Starfleet & their ideals. We just never get browbeat with that aspect a tenth as much.
So then she dies & how does he handle it? He goes out of his way to literally shun & eradicate any involvement he could have in continuing to keep that spirit alive for his son. He by all accounts, literally dishonors his son & son's mother by disregarding or disavowing her wishes, as if the kid would suffer greatly by not being a proper Klingon, when he himself is living proof that it need not be that way. For god sake, he did his kid more wrong than Sarek. He's a walking contradiction, & not a very interesting one
The walking contradiction thing sometimes irks me about Riker too. As written, he's supposed to be the every man, congenial best friend of the crew type guy, but because the actor was so much better at playing something quite different, he ends up more often being difficult, brooding, hardheaded, even egotistical & somewhat elitist at times. Now admittedly, THAT Riker is way more interesting of a character, but they really struggled to reconcile those conflicting representations.
Whenever I hear Data talk about Riker's easy going nature in Data's Day, I think "When?" when the hell is that guy easy going? It seemed, especially after season 2, way more like he was only easy going when he'd spent years getting to know someone closely. Otherwise, he could routinely be a big fat dick lol
So then she dies & how does he handle it? He goes out of his way to literally shun & eradicate any involvement he could have in continuing to keep that spirit alive for his son. He by all accounts, literally dishonors his son & son's mother by disregarding or disavowing her wishes, as if the kid would suffer greatly by not being a proper Klingon, when he himself is living proof that it need not be that way. For god sake, he did his kid more wrong than Sarek. He's a walking contradiction, & not a very interesting one
The walking contradiction thing sometimes irks me about Riker too. As written, he's supposed to be the every man, congenial best friend of the crew type guy, but because the actor was so much better at playing something quite different, he ends up more often being difficult, brooding, hardheaded, even egotistical & somewhat elitist at times. Now admittedly, THAT Riker is way more interesting of a character, but they really struggled to reconcile those conflicting representations.
Whenever I hear Data talk about Riker's easy going nature in Data's Day, I think "When?" when the hell is that guy easy going? It seemed, especially after season 2, way more like he was only easy going when he'd spent years getting to know someone closely. Otherwise, he could routinely be a big fat dick lol
That's why I love Ezri--she says what I feel
Had the episode been earlier in S7 when she was still unsure of who she was then the answer might've been different, but by this point she's managed to get on top of being Joined and has her own voice and opinions that aren't quashed under the horn Curzon and Jadzia had for Klingon culture.
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