Post 2378: Warp 10, the Delta Flyer, & A New Technology Boom?

[Mres_was_framed!]

Ignoring "Picard" and assuming instead that Star Trek had continued in the vein of the 90's franchise entries with a new series set after "Voyager," and a Starfleet that had not become so corrupt as what we see in the new Trek series,

I'm really tired of shows these days being about corruption and making an institution of strength into something bad.

because if Voyager were able to achieve and sustain 9.975 as a top cruising speed... it would be able to get back to Earth in 7 days),

according to the warp speed calculator, Warp 9.975 is about 5120c. Figure a ship cruises at 70% its top (flank) speed, and that is 3584c.

Can you clarify which warp scale this is and how the website's calculator mentioned later work to determine how much faster each decimal place is than the last?

 

[Oddish]

I can do the former. https://www.st-minutiae.com/resources/warp/index.html

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

I can do the former. https://www.st-minutiae.com/resources/warp/index.html

The issue I have is that the speeds after Warp 9 was defined by a hand drawn curve to infinity, which is complete and utter BS.

So in my head cannon, I just re-used the TNG era formula, and let the #'s on a excel spread sheet run it to infinity or as far as my old excel spread sheet can handle.

And you can get accurate & consistent #'s from that, especially to do accurate Velocity / Time / Distance caluclations over a arbitrary speed past the Warp 9 factor.

 

[at Quark's]

Why would there be a sudden boom after 2378?

I mean, they started inventing / discovering / encountering amazing technology on a somewhat regular basis on the Enterprise -D starting in 2365 or so ... all of which was essentially shelved and never heard from again. Why would the technology Voyager brought with it fare any differently?

 

[Deks]

Can you clarify which warp scale this is and how the website's calculator mentioned later work to determine how much faster each decimal place is than the last?

According to canonical data, Tom Paris said Warp 9.9 = 4 billion miles per second (21 473 times light speed).

Past Warp 9.9, speed increases exponentially with every increment... therefore, 9.975 would basically get voyager back to earth in just under 7 days.

The show's writers should have thrown Voyager hundreds of millions of Ly's away for them to need 75 years to get back at Warp 9.975 (which was apparently mentioned to be maximum sustainable cruise velocity).

And those speeds would be more in line with an exponential progression in science and technology from an interstellar organisation that comprises over 150 different alien races... albeit... by the late 24th century (TNG/DS9/VOY timeframes), the Federation should have been seen to explore other galaxies... that's how powerful Warp drive should have become.

 

[valkyrie013]

If they were capable of a average cruising speed of 9+ then the time to get back may be 20 years, but that is beyond optimistic. Average warp 7 is far more likly. The 75 year timeframe is probably average cruise speed.
Remember in The Chase the D had to undergo minor repairs after doing warp 9+ for a few days, let alone weeks or months.

I could see quantum slipstream as something akin to a capasitor. Run it for 500ly then it would take months to recrystalize benamite then do it again.

 

[Oddish]

On "Pathfinder", it's revealed that Voyager's calculated average speed was Warp 6.2, figuring that fits with its projected journey time of 1000ly/year, that's 1000c. But according to the calculator, it's only about 400c. Or, about 8% of Voyager's maximum sustainable speed. If Voyager was a sports car with a top end of 160 mph, that's like dawdling along at 13. Not saying you could sustain top speed without frying your engine, but you should be able to purr along at 75, no problem. That translates to warp 9.75, plus or minus.

If you check Memory Alpha, you'll find warp speed calculations all over the place. And let's not forget that the Federation itself is 8000ly across, so crossing it at warp 6 would take 21 years (warp 9, a bit over five).

 

[C.E. Evans]

Various non-canonical sources have generally listed Warp 6 as the normal cruising speed for most Federation starships. That's likely the highest speed a ship can hold without damaging the engines. So as long as there's a constant fuel source, it can probably hold that speed indefinitely. But the higher the warp factor, naturally the greater the strain on the engines and the greater risk of engine burnout. So even if your ship can go Warp 9.999, it isn't going to hold that speed for more than a few hours (12 hours according to the aforementioned sources) before throttling back down to Warp 6 or so, IMO.

 

[Oddish]

Given Voyager's higher top speed, she should have had a higher cruise. Also, since Warp 6 is 356c, her trip home should have been estimated at 200 years instead of 70. Warp 8, or 1024c, makes more sense for a 70-year trip.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

According to canonical data, Tom Paris said Warp 9.9 = 4 billion miles per second (21 473 times light speed).

Past Warp 9.9, speed increases exponentially with every increment... therefore, 9.975 would basically get voyager back to earth in just under 7 days.

The show's writers should have thrown Voyager hundreds of millions of Ly's away for them to need 75 years to get back at Warp 9.975 (which was apparently mentioned to be maximum sustainable cruise velocity).

And those speeds would be more in line with an exponential progression in science and technology from an interstellar organisation that comprises over 150 different alien races... albeit... by the late 24th century (TNG/DS9/VOY timeframes), the Federation should have been seen to explore other galaxies... that's how powerful Warp drive should have become.

Tom Paris' Warp 9.9 = 4 billion mps is what I use to calibrate what Warp 9.9 is relative to my improved WF 3.0 scale.
That's the best on-screen canonical statement we have.
WF 3.0 scale is just WF 2.0, but remove the hand drawn curve after Warp 9 and let the formula run until infinity.
The #'s are still clear & manageable, plus you can easily calculate travel time between point A->B easily.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

Given Voyager's higher top speed, she should have had a higher cruise. Also, since Warp 6 is 356c, her trip home should have been estimated at 200 years instead of 70. Warp 8, or 1024c, makes more sense for a 70-year trip.

I came to the same conclusion with my calculations:

+ Voyager's Unscheduled 70,000 ly journey from the Delta Quadrant to home:
- Based on the on-screen estimates of 75 year journey has a average cruise speed of Warp 8 assuming unlimited fuel
- Warp 8 would take 68.36 years if non-stop with unlimited fuel, but given stops, repairs, exploration, etc. They probably rounded up to 75 years
- That means I can guess that Warp 8 was their cruise speed assuming unlimited fuel (A VERY Unrealistic Scenario)
- Galaxy Class initial Average Cruise speed was Warp 6, but later on became Warp 7

 

[Deks]

Tom Paris' Warp 9.9 = 4 billion mps is what I use to calibrate what Warp 9.9 is relative to my improved WF 3.0 scale.
That's the best on-screen canonical statement we have.
WF 3.0 scale is just WF 2.0, but remove the hand drawn curve after Warp 9 and let the formula run until infinity.
The #'s are still clear & manageable, plus you can easily calculate travel time between point A->B easily.

No Starfleet ship was actually seen achieving or sustaining Warp 9.9 for any appreciable amount of time under regular circumstances during TNG run (Enterprise D topped out at Warp 9.6 for sustainable speed)... except the USS Prometheus which was seen in the 4th season of Voyager (the Prometheus EMH mentioned that the ship was en route to Romulan space at Warp 9.9 - and last I recall, that ship wasn't shaking or straining itself to maintain that speed - Voyager on the other hand was threatened with an imminent structural collapse by just approaching Warp 9.9 in 'Threshold' episode which forced Chakotay to DROP the speed to Warp 9.5 - and we have at least 1 other instance where Paris actively said to Janeway that he can try maintaining Warp 9.75 (not 9.975) for 12 hours - when they decided to go through 'The Swarm' territory.

This is why I think the 9.975 figure (which was never attained in practice) was incorrect and what the writers probably wanted to say was 9.75 for a limited period (albeit to be fair, for the Federation in the late 24th century, it should have been more than possible to attain/maintain Warp 9.975 indefinitely as a sort of base cruising speed, with say Warp 9.9999 being 'maximum sustainable cruising velocity' which can also be maintained for a very long time - or enough to get you to Andromeda Galaxy in about 4 hours - so, that speed would be used to reach other galaxies and in emergencies obviously, whereas lower speeds of 9.975 for example to explore the galaxies in a relatively small/manageable amount of time).

So, if Voyager's (actual) 'temporarily sustainable cruise velocity' was say Warp 9.75 for about 12 hours... Warp 9.9 (maintained indefinitely) on USS Prometheus seems reasonable only 4 years after Voyager's launch.
And if that progression (of increasing Warp factor by 0.15 increments every 4 years is maintained, then in 20 years AFTER the USS Prometheus (or, by the time of Star Trek Picard), sustainable and cruising Warp speed would technically be Warp 9.975 (3.435 million times C).

But let's assume that the closer you get to the TW threshold, the more difficult it becomes to achieve high Warp velocities due to energy/fuel consumption also increasing by large amounts (exponentially, just like the speeds)... which would necessitate developments/breakthroughs in energy and fuel efficiency (that said, a starship could technically/probably produce/emit Soliton Waves to increase its energy efficiency to similar levels like they saw in the original Soliton Wave experiment... 400% increase in efficiency - or at least REALLY close to that).
100% increase in efficiency would be double of what the Enteprise-D had.
400% increase in efficiency would be 5x better than what the ENT-D had (which at the time of the soliton wave experiment and TNG run could maintain Warp 9.6).

So, that (with the Soliton Wave efficiency trick) would probably allow for a sustainable Warp velocity of about Warp 9.925 on the USS Prometheus.
Warp 9.91= 42,946 times speed of light (double increase in speed and energy consumption vs Warp 9.9)
Warp 9.92 = 85,892 times speed of light (another double increase in energy consumption vs Warp 9.91 - or quadruple increase in speed and energy consumption over Warp 9.9)

Warp 9.92 would take a ship about 31.5 years to reach Andromeda galaxy.
Still quite slow... but in contrast, it would need under 2 years (approximately) to go from one end of the Milky Way to another (if you acknowledge revision to the Milky Way measuring 150 000 Ly's from one end to the other ).

By the time of Star Trek Picard, I think SF ships would be capable of those and greater speeds (aka, Warp 9.975 - or about 286 days to reach Andromeda galaxy).

Though, this is still trumped by Quantum Slipstream V2 (which the Voyager crew designed with Borg technology and Benamite Crystals) that topped out at about 10 000 Ly's per minute (rough translation speed is Warp 9.9999)
Quantum Slipstream V1 (300 Ly's per hour) would be just under Warp 9.975.

 

[Oddish]

I think a better warp scale would be an open ended one, instead of getting smaller increments as you approach 10. As ships get faster, all those 9.99 whatevers will get super annoying. A better version is as follows:
Warp 1 = c = 300,000 km/s
Warp 2 = 10c
Warp 3 = 50c
Warp 4 = 200c
Warp 5 = 400c

• All additional warp factors are previous speed x2.
• Fractions of a warp factor are indicated by warp x.y = warp x times 1.y
• So, the new warp 9 would be 6400c. Warp 11.2 would be 30,720c, or (25,600c x 1.2).
• At low values, this is stretched proportionally. Warp 2.6 translates to 34c, for instance.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

(if you acknowledge revision to the Milky Way measuring 150 000 Ly's from one end to the other

I acknowledge that our Milky Way's:
- Thin Disk has a Diameter ~100,000 ly with maximum Thickness of 1,000 ly
- Thick Disk has a Diameter ~150,000 - 200,000 ly with maximum Thickness of 5,000 ly
- Galactic Halo has a Diameter ~ 600,000 ly

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

I think a better warp scale would be an open ended one, instead of getting smaller increments as you approach 10. As ships get faster, all those 9.99 whatevers will get super annoying. A better version is as follows:
Warp 1 = c = 300,000 km/s
Warp 2 = 10c
Warp 3 = 50c
Warp 4 = 200c
Warp 5 = 400c

• All additional warp factors are previous speed x2.
• Fractions of a warp factor are indicated by warp x.y = warp x times 1.y
• So, the new warp 9 would be 6400c. Warp 11.2 would be 30,720c, or (25,600c x 1.2).
• At low values, this is stretched proportionally. Warp 2.6 translates to 34c, for instance.

Here's my Warp Factor Scale 3.0 based on what I stated.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1sIjk8m9-0GH-OlgXImLTiPJTf23LJ6al/view?usp=sharing

 

[Oddish]

Here's my Warp Factor Scale 3.0 based on what I stated.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1sIjk8m9-0GH-OlgXImLTiPJTf23LJ6al/view?usp=sharing

So, it's basically v = w^3.3333333 × c, extrapolating the standard scale instead of having it converge on 10.

 

[Deks]

I think a better warp scale would be an open ended one, instead of getting smaller increments as you approach 10. As ships get faster, all those 9.99 whatevers will get super annoying. A better version is as follows:
Warp 1 = c = 300,000 km/s
Warp 2 = 10c
Warp 3 = 50c
Warp 4 = 200c
Warp 5 = 400c

• All additional warp factors are previous speed x2.
• Fractions of a warp factor are indicated by warp x.y = warp x times 1.y
• So, the new warp 9 would be 6400c. Warp 11.2 would be 30,720c, or (25,600c x 1.2).
• At low values, this is stretched proportionally. Warp 2.6 translates to 34c, for instance.

I always had issues with Warp 1 = C because, Warp = FTL (faster than light)... not 'as fast as light' (AFAL).
Why describe a speed as FTL when it doesn't surpass light?
Never made any logical sense to me.
The whole point is to SURPASS speed of light which signals to another interstellar organisation (like the Federation) that you have FTL technology.... otherwise, you wouldn't get very far.

It would make more sense if Warp 1 = 2 - 5c
Warp 2 = 10c
Warp 3 = 50c
Warp 4 = 200c
Warp 5 = 400c

etc...

I was simply using Warp factors of 9.91 and 9.92 for reference as we understood them from Voyager for example and where Warp velocities would be if you take into account that 9.9 = 21 473 times C... which would illustrate how warp speed increases exponentially with every increment past Warp 9.9 (trying to work within the canonical frame of reference).

But where does 'infinite velocity' (also known as Warp 10) stand on your scale?
I mean, technically, that IS canon...so it would need to be factored in.

 

[Oddish]

In the future of "All Good Things", they had warp factors above 10. I figured they had reworked the scale to allow for faster ships. Instead of "warp 9.993", they say "warp 13".

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

So, it's basically v = w^3.3333333 × c, extrapolating the standard scale instead of having it converge on 10.

It's basically the TNG era scale, but remove the silly cap of compressing the hand drawn line after Warp 9 -> 10 into Infinite speed, which I found to be much more useful and easier to dial in accurate #'s.

 

[Oddish]

I don't know if the .3333333 part is necessary, though. Just extrapolate the original v = w^3 instead. Or, to allow for higher speeds as the 25th century approaches and transwarp engines are perfected, go to v = w^4. Warp 4 is now 256c, warp 8 is 4096c, and warp 11 is a blazing 14,641c. Just have the top speed be warp 13.6 or something, and no I'm not going to multiply it out.