Post 2378: Warp 10, the Delta Flyer, & A New Technology Boom?

[Kamen Rider Blade]

I don't know if the .3333333 part is necessary, though. Just extrapolate the original v = w^3 instead. Or, to allow for higher speeds as the 25th century approaches and transwarp engines are perfected, go to v = w^4. Warp 4 is now 256c, warp 8 is 4096c, and warp 11 is a blazing 14,641c. Just have the top speed be warp 13.6 or something, and no I'm not going to multiply it out.

I just literally re-used the TNG era formula for backwards compatibility, I didn't change anything other than after Warp 9.

So, that's my take =D

Then I did estimations on where all the advanced FTL things fell on the scale post Warp 9.

So, on my scale, we have different categories of Warp like you have different categories of Warp Speed just like you have different categories of Speed within Atmosphere.

Speed Travel in Atmosphere here on Earth.
Sub-Sonic: Mach < 0.8
Trans-Sonic: Mach 0.8-1.2
Super-Sonic: Mach 1.2–5.0
Hyper-Sonic: Mach 5.0-10.0
High Hyper-Sonic: Mach 10.0–25.0
Atmospheric Re-Entry Speeds: Mach > 25.0

My UFP categorization:
Basic Warp Factors: 1 - 9.x
Deca Warp Factors: 10 - 99.x
Trans Warp Factors: 100 - 999.x
Super Warp Factors: 1,000 - 9,999.x
Hyper Warp Factors: 10,000 - 99,999.x
Ultra Warp Factors: 100,000 - 999,999.x

 

[matthunter]

I always had issues with Warp 1 = C because, Warp = FTL (faster than light)... not 'as fast as light' (AFAL).
Why describe a speed as FTL when it doesn't surpass light?
Never made any logical sense to me.

The TNG Tech Manual says that to get around relativistic effects, the ship actually fluctuates across the boundary of c, never staying exactly at lightspeed for more than Planck time. So it is actually moving FTL roughly 50% of the time, and the other 50% slightly STL.

 

[C.E. Evans]

The TNG Tech Manual says that to get around relativistic effects, the ship actually fluctuates across the boundary of c, never staying exactly at lightspeed for more than Planck time. So it is actually moving FTL roughly 50% of the time, and the other 50% slightly STL.

IIRC, that was that was the description of Cochrane's original warp engine (for an unmanned test craft), but later advances would allow warp engines to just fly across the lightspeed threshold via subspace.

 

[Deks]

The TNG Tech Manual says that to get around relativistic effects, the ship actually fluctuates across the boundary of c, never staying exactly at lightspeed for more than Planck time. So it is actually moving FTL roughly 50% of the time, and the other 50% slightly STL.

The technical manual however is not canon... its a guideline, and it doesn't have a good representation of Federation technological capabilities (the TM is sorely lacking in regards to firepower alone, which as we've seen from on-screen data goes into gigatons and teratons at the highest level - mainly thanks to Starfleet using subspace technology to severely enhance the underlying base effect).

At any rate, I'm inclined to think that Warp 1 is NOT C... but that its in fact (at least) 1.5 - 2C instead.

I can imagine the aforementioned fluctuating speed being applicable to an early experimental unmanned model made for lab tests etc... but the 'final version' which Cochrane actually flew in First Contact was in fact faster than light which eventually had to have led to Warp 1 being defined as FASTER than the speed of light (otherwise, why call it Warp to begin with?).

 

[matthunter]

Fair enough, but the Tech Manual is ALSO the source of the "Warp 10 is infinite speed" warp curve and VOY made that canonical.

So whatcha gonna do?

 

[Oddish]

That was the tech manual, as of the TNG era, when a ship could sustain Warp 9 (1500c) and reach 9.6 (1900c).

What happens when ships get faster? If a ship can get up to 15,000c, or 30, or 80, do you just keep adding more 9's after the decimal? Seems doubtful. I think that's what happened in "All Good Things". The warp scale had been redesigned, so when Riker said "set a course for Disneyland, warp 13", it made perfect sense.

 

[Mres_was_framed!]

Past Warp 9.9, speed increases exponentially with every increment

Can someone remind me of what exponent we are talking about once we get above warp 9 and the chart would become more curved?

Instead of "warp 9.993", they say "warp 13".

Even onscreen the dialogue in the later seasons of TNG-era shows was beginning to include phrases like "Warp 9.975," which would not be very useful for daily usage. I have the idea that maybe the new scale with numbers like Warp 13 refers to the number of decimal places beyond what was once warp 9. So warp 13 would be Warp 9 but with thirteen 9's added after the decimal point.

 

[Mres_was_framed!]

Past Warp 9.9, speed increases exponentially with every increment

Can someone remind me of what exponent we are talking about once we get above warp 9 and the chart would become more curved?

Instead of "warp 9.993", they say "warp 13".

Even onscreen the dialogue in the later seasons of TNG-era shows was beginning to include phrases like "Warp 9.975," which would not be very useful for daily usage. I have the idea that maybe the new scale with numbers like Warp 13 refers to the number of decimal places beyond what was once warp 9. So warp 13 would be Warp 9 but with thirteen 9's added after the decimal point.

 

[Oddish]

Better to just revamp the whole system so that it makes more sense.

Revamped my system again because there's a very specific reason for the first nine warp factors. They are what they are because there's a power consumption falloff at very specific speeds: 10c (warp 2), 392c (warp 6), others. Traveling Warp 5 is just more efficient than Warp 4.7 or 4.8... that's why the increments are so odd. But once you're above warp 9, it's just a matter of speed and power consumption rising toward infinity, with no further cutoffs. Beyond 9, you can put the integers wherever you want. One potential scale, based on multiples of Warp 9:
Warp 9: 1516c
Warp 10: 1.5x faster = 2274c
Warp 11: 2x faster = 3032c
Warp 12: 3x faster = 4548c
Warp 13: 4.5x = about 6800c
Warp 14: 6x = about 9100c
Warp 15: 8x = 12,128c

 

[at Quark's]

I think a better warp scale would be an open ended one, instead of getting smaller increments as you approach 10. As ships get faster, all those 9.99 whatevers will get super annoying. A better version is as follows:
Warp 1 = c = 300,000 km/s
Warp 2 = 10c
Warp 3 = 50c
Warp 4 = 200c
Warp 5 = 400c

• All additional warp factors are previous speed x2.
• Fractions of a warp factor are indicated by warp x.y = warp x times 1.y
• So, the new warp 9 would be 6400c. Warp 11.2 would be 30,720c, or (25,600c x 1.2).
• At low values, this is stretched proportionally. Warp 2.6 translates to 34c, for instance.

Wasn't that warp 10 asymptote introduced in TNG exactly because they wanted to avoid inflation of warp factors? (That in order to top TOS and show how much more advanced they were, they'd had to have ships flying around at warp 21 and so on, reaching ever higher values in succeeding episodes or series). I think we can conclude now that that approach didn't quite pan out the way it was intended to.

 

[Oddish]

That's what they did. I'm just asking if it really makes sense, given that ships are only going to get faster as warp technology gets further streamlined. When flights to the Delta Quadrant take six months instead of 70 years, does it still make sense to say "warp 9.999 this" or "warp 9.99999 that" all the time?

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

That's what they did. I'm just asking if it really makes sense, given that ships are only going to get faster as warp technology gets further streamlined. When flights to the Delta Quadrant take six months instead of 70 years, does it still make sense to say "warp 9.999 this" or "warp 9.99999 that" all the time?

You're correct, that's why I used the same TNG era Warp Factor formula, but erased the BS hand drawn curve to infinity pass Warp 9.

This allows proper number spacing and makes it ALOT easier to calculated Warp Factors without constantly adding 9's past the decimal.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1sIjk8m9-0GH-OlgXImLTiPJTf23LJ6al/view?usp=sharing

 

[Oddish]

That basically involves raising it to the power of 3.3333333, which works, but produces crazy numbers.

If you had a drive that could cross the galaxy in 6 months at cruising speed (140,000c) then, it would have something like "set a course for the Ocampa homeworld, warp 35."

They kicked the exponent from 3 to 3.33333 in the TNG era, so in the transwarp era, they might want to bring it up to 4, same open end scale. Warp 2 is 16c, warp 6 is 1296c, and warp 16 is 65,536c.

 

[C.E. Evans]

I think the original intent of the TNG Warp Scale was to simplify things by making Warp 10 an absolute or impossible value, while producing warp speeds that were generally twice as fast as the TOS Warp Scale. It also had the benefit of keeping the Galaxy a relatively big place with our heroes operating in only a small part of it. Much of it would be still unknown and decades away at high warp during the 24th-Century, IMO. Ideally, we never would have seen ships going beyond Warp 9.8 or so with anything like Warp 9.999+ being where Q and other godlike beings traveled. We would get there eventually, but I'm inclined to think that Roddenberry wanted that to happen much later in our future.

But I think the urge to have faster and faster still warp factors was impossible for some writers and producers to resist, and we still end up with cumbersome numbers in the end. But given how neither the TOS or TNG warp scales hold up very well to onscreen material, it all may just come down to "what sounds kewl" when all is said and done.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

But I think the urge to have faster and faster still warp factors was impossible for some writers and producers to resist, and we still end up with cumbersome numbers in the end. But given how neither the TOS or TNG warp scales hold up very well to onscreen material, it all may just come down to "what sounds kewl" when all is said and done.

Given the realities of wanting to go faster, even IRL, we as people want to go faster in all modes of transportation.

Just adding extra digit of 9 after the decimal place gets confusing very easily to average folks.

Just going up a fixed formula like the TNG Warp Factor makes more sense.

Especially if you make the formula public and the table public.

Warp Factor 20, Warp Factor 35, Warp Factor 50, etc.

That all adds to clarity about how fast you're traveling.

 

[Oddish]

If you check the chart in the link above, you can tell that warp speed is the warp factor to the power of 10/3, or 3.3333333. This is best done with perfect cubes. Warp 8, or 2^3, translates to 1024c, or 2^10. Warp 27, or 3^3, translates to 59,049 = 3^10. And Warp 64 (4^3) is 1,048,576 = 4^10. 125, 5^3, is probably 5^10×c, but I don't know my powers of 5 that high.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

If you check the chart in the link above, you can tell that warp speed is the warp factor to the power of 10/3, or 3.3333333. This is best done with perfect cubes. Warp 8, or 2^3, translates to 1024c, or 2^10. Warp 27, or 3^3, translates to 59,049 = 3^10. And Warp 64 (4^3) is 1,048,576 = 4^10. 125, 5^3, is probably 5^10×c, but I don't know my powers of 5 that high.

I literally took the TNG era Warp Factor formula and just "Uncapped" it after Warp 9. So I literally copied that formula into Excel and let it populate out all the way to Warp Factor 65,535 with #c and distance traveled in (Light Years) over major units of time. =D

 

[Oddish]

So, certain numbers would produce recognizable results. Warp 1000 would be 10 billion C. That would get you to the edge of the universe in two years. Voyager's journey would take nine minutes.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

So, certain numbers would produce recognizable results. Warp 1000 would be 10 billion C. That would get you to the edge of the universe in two years. Voyager's journey would take nine minutes.

Warp Factor 1000 is the Threshold between the TransWarp & SuperWarp realms of speed on my scale.

The DASH Drive AKA Spore Drive should be Warp Factor 635 on my scale.

Real Time Video Conferencing between Project PathFinder & Voyager in the Delta Quadrant is about WF 11,214 on my scale. Ergo the HyperSubSpace radio packets were traveling that fast.

'The Traveler' made the Enterprise-D go at WF 31,841 on my scale.

 

[Henoch]

But given how neither the TOS or TNG warp scales hold up very well to onscreen material, it all may just come down to "what sounds kewl" when all is said and done.

That's why we need to include a variable into the formula to represent the speed of plot.