Re-evaluating Problematic Characters

[CuriousCaitian]

Here ya go @CuriousCaitian https://www.roddenberry.com/media/vault/TNG-WritersDirectorsGuide.pdf - that's the original and first revision versions.
I have the fifth season revised edition, which I tried to link a couple relevant pages to above - reveals a lot of what Gene was thinking when he created the characters. I try to upload the few relvaent pages again later, which makes for an interesting comparison for what Gene says regarding Deanna and Guinan.

Thank you! Guess that answers my bible question, huh?

Downloaded, and will be eagerly devoured. Insight into what Gene was thinking, rather than what other people think he was thinking, is very welcome indeed.

The evolution of the Troi character is interesting, from Chief Psychiatrist and working in the medical department to occupying the chair beside Picard (originally where Data was going to go as the 'Captain's Advisor') as they realised that giving her the chair made her more prominent and gave her more to do. Granted, the writers still didn't have a clue and she was at risk of being axed at the end of S1.

The episodic nature of TNG would only hamper the role of a counsellor, as the hardships of a particular mission or incident would disappear by the start of the next episode (Picard's dealing with being assimilated is the only exception, but Geordi being abducted by Romulans and brainwashed into being an assassin is fine the following week, likewise the fact the Picard thought there were five lights). Without the commitment to show exactly how she helps them with the stresses and strains of life in space all we get are "emotional issue of the week" (not necessarily always featuring the main cast), which again are magically cured in less than seven days.

Bolting on lots of other things for her to do makes sense, as it bulks up how she can be used, though does make her role somewhat amorphous and ill-defined. Had they just settled on something like Comms/Cultural Officer, she could man a bridge station, deal with language/translation issues, as well as be a font of knowledge about sociology and psychology of alien races, their cultures and practices, making her a valuable asset on away missions or on the bridge--whilst her empathic abilities could be put to use during first contacts and diplomatic forays.

However, she probably would've just been reduced to saying "hailing frequencies open".

A neat summation of the issues, and I can't help thinking the original concept might have been the better one, if, as you note, still not ideal for an episodic series. I really like your alternative suggestion, too; combine that with @Orphalesion's ideas, and you'd have a pretty strong character, I'd say.

All this is making me wonder, not for the first time, what a serialised TNG, or TNG-style series, would have been like. I guess a not-inconsiderable part of my discontent with current Trek series is I had hopes for such a thing, and they didn't pan out (in my opinion). Maybe if JMS's pitch had been accepted, and of course we don't know what else is planned by Kurtzman.

 

[Odo]

@CuriousCaitian I think it's also worth checking out what was and what wasn't changed as the seasons went on and Troi was cast. Here's a the pages about Troi and Guinan from the season 5 revision I tried to post earlier, as opposed to the season 1 bible I linked to - I wonder what Roddenberry meant by "lubrication"! https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1BKF8SxwPZrG9sw0e0WQw8X-yHkHSGC_o?usp=sharing

(PS - the link to your writing in your bio isn't working!)

 

[CuriousCaitian]

@CuriousCaitian I think it's also worth checking out what was and what wasn't changed as the seasons went on and Troi was cast. Here's a the pages about Troi and Guinan from the season 5 revision I tried to post earlier, as opposed to the season 1 bible I linked to - I wonder what Roddenberry meant by "lubrication"! https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1BKF8SxwPZrG9sw0e0WQw8X-yHkHSGC_o?usp=sharing

(PS - the link to your writing in your bio isn't working!)

Definitely! Thanks again. :-)

And if Roddenberry was what many think him, not too hard to guess. :-p

(PS - I know. Site, and account, got nuked when I wasn't looking. Changed to my AO3 for now, since much of what I write goes there anyway.)

 

[Silvercrest]

Yeah, Deanna got two roles that might require largely overlapping abilities, but that you probably wouldn't want vested in one and the same person. First, you'd think that the person generally responsible for overseeing the psychological wellbeing of over 1000 people (and perhaps significantly more, as we don't know if the 1013 number is crew only or including their families) probably would head a department and have a full time day job on that. There might be times when her combined responsibilities as a ship's diplomatic officer would bite each other in terms of time requirements. Secondly, it's questionable whether if you get half the bridge crew crying on your couch every three weeks and hear their most personal secrets, you can still be that impartial advisor on the bridge in diplomatic situations.

Then the idea of a ship's diplomatic officer is an intriguing one, and could certainly have added value. If only she had been portrayed in that role to be a capable officer saying useful things, rather than just belaboring the obvious, giving mostly useless advice. That's just a case of bad writing, I think, but it still happened.

Also, given that she was selected in that role for her abilities, her background doesn't quite make sense. She's a half member of a telepathic race, giving her reduced abilities - empathic rather than fully telepathic. I mean, suppose you're Picard and you can choose between Deanna, who can tell you 'I'm not sure Captain but I think he's hiding something', or anyone of an entire Federation planet of Betazoid full telepaths, each and any of whom who could tell you: 'He's planning on double crossing you, Captain, he's thinking right now about that secret meeting with a Romulan senator he's going to have in three days on the fourth moon of Geladrad 6 ' - now who would you choose as your advisor? Of course that in reality would have spoiled many storylines, so that the in-universe and out-of-universe requirements are ad odds with each other here.

So yeah, I agree, the idea in itself wasn't bad, it just wasn't thought out well enough.

In several ways! I read someplace that Gene intentionally didn't make her a full telepath and justified it by discussing how hard a full teep would have it; being constantly flooded by everyone's thoughts around her and so on. Don't remember where I read it.

That may be true in some fiction, but if true here, it should apply equally to the entire Betazoid race ... and we very quickly met Lwaxana Troi, for whom it was patently untrue. Gene's justification was only applicable to a main character.

It seems Gene had some unusual ideas about his own characters and applied different standards to them than everyone else. The "no conflicts" thing is another example. The Enterprise crew weren't allowed to squabble among themselves, but it was fine for them to meet (and have conflicts with) other Starfleet personnel who were misguided, corrupt, or just having a bad day.

Picard immediately took advantage of having an empath in strategic encounters ... If you have an ace like that, keep it close at hand. Starfleet may have instituted ship's counselors because long-term voyages had higher rates of depression or substance abuse (just thinking hypothetically), but Picard had been out in the black longer than most, and knew the advantage of having an emotional smoke detector in tense encounters.

It makes sense having someone on the bridge who can read emotions. Enterprise had about 1000 people on board, any advantage the crew can have over possibly dangerous enemies is good to have.

If nothing more, Deanna was there to alert the captain of a danger and save a thousand people. Why not use that ability if it's available.

No reason not to! But being the Ship's Smoke Alarm doesn't necessarily connect to her other roles as Ship's Therapist or Ship's Diplomat. It appears she had THREE roles, not two.

 

[Orphalesion]

In several ways! I read someplace that Gene intentionally didn't make her a full telepath and justified it by discussing how hard a full teep would have it; being constantly flooded by everyone's thoughts around her and so on. Don't remember where I read it.

Yes that's what they claimed "full telepathy is hard man"

But...it was always complete and utter BS/laziness. There's enough fiction that features fully telepathic characters in very effective ways.

Read my third post in this thread for some ideas on what to do with a fully telepathic Troi:

I always thought that Deanna's mind reading (as I would have made her a full telepath and all) such have been something that takes conscious effort of her, like it's often portrayed elsewhere. With empath Troi from the show automatically picking up emotions from as far away as another ship or even from the planet they are orbiting of course makes her both a bit too powerful and passive. But if she has to work to reach into someone's mind we suddenly have an active character who faces challenges. This Deanna could both showcase her skill and intelligence as she works to overcome someone's mental defenses or has to be extremely subtle and sneaky to read someone's mind without them noticing and her compassion and empathy as she refuses to harm her target's mind to get the information she wants, even in a life-and-death situation.
There would have also been a lot of potential uses of her and Riker's telepathic bond, including during action sequences that could have seen them work coordinate to overcome foes without having to talk it out first.

And then there's the potential of giving Troi offensive telepathic powers. If a truly despicable foe or situation pushes Deanna past her breaking point she might be able to flood their mind with such overwhelming negative thoughts that it reduces them to a quivering mass. Or...to tickle the interests of some of the writers/show runners, she could have triggered the bliss centre in a target's brain and make them "orgasm themselves to sleep" to disarm them (Not my idea, something from Grant Morrison's X-Men run, where telepath and trained therapist Emma Frost used that to deal with an angry mob, but it shows the potential telepathy has if you really want to explore it)
Suddenly this Deanna is useful on away mission and can even have a "oh shiiiiiiii*" moment when she's on the away team in the Borg cube in BoBW and realizes that her offensive telepathy, her last and most desperate trump card which the viewer knows by now she only uses in the most dire of circumstances, does not work on the Borg!

 

[Silvercrest]

Oh, I read all that. No argument. My beef was simply that Gene's objection to that didn't hold up even within the same work.

 

[amp]

I don't know. Whenever I see telepathy portrayed onscreen whether on Trek, B5, Stargate, etc., it rarely seems to make compelling television. It's an actor staring intently at someone else trying to convey some kind of psi-ray or something passing between them. Usually the actor just looks a little silly.

And aside from the acting, personally I think the less pseudoscience gibberish in science fiction, the better.

 

[at Quark's]

That may be true in some fiction, but if true here, it should apply equally to the entire Betazoid race ... and we very quickly met Lwaxana Troi, for whom it was patently untrue. Gene's justification was only applicable to a main character.

That was exactly my thought when I wrote the post you replied on. Why didn't he make her a full member of a race of empaths? It would have avoided a lot of these problems. Perhaps he was still enamored by the success of half breed Spock and the dual cultural heritage thing?

 

[CuriousCaitian]

It seems Gene had some unusual ideas about his own characters and applied different standards to them than everyone else. The "no conflicts" thing is another example. The Enterprise crew weren't allowed to squabble among themselves, but it was fine for them to meet (and have conflicts with) other Starfleet personnel who were misguided, corrupt, or just having a bad day.

Agreed. Regarding 'no conflicts among the crew', it's a bit of a double-edged sword; on the one hand, forcing writers to try something new, but on the other, potentially impeding character depth. Of course, you can go too far with conflict, ala Black Lighting, the first episode of which seemed to be all conflict between characters with zero chance to get to know them as people. It's a balance.

I don't know. Whenever I see telepathy portrayed onscreen whether on Trek, B5, Stargate, etc., it rarely seems to make compelling television. It's an actor staring intently at someone else trying to convey some kind of psi-ray or something passing between them. Usually the actor just looks a little silly.

And aside from the acting, personally I think the less pseudoscience gibberish in science fiction, the better.

B5 did quite well with telepathy, for me, but yes, it is difficult to make work, and often didn't. And no argument about the technobabble.

That was exactly my thought when I wrote the post you replied on. Why didn't he make her a full member of a race of empaths? It would have avoided a lot of these problems. Perhaps he was still enamored by the success of half breed Spock and the dual cultural heritage thing?

Interesting thought! Maybe he wanted her to be unique, stand out, but if so he and the show went about it in fairly cack-handed fashion.

 

[Oddish]

One thing I thought was funny about Troi...
She has Reginald Barclay in her office: she apparently has no idea that he is smitten with her, even though he's a few meters away and he's not exactly a poster child for precise emotional control.
She encounters the "Goddess of Empathy" on the holodeck: Judging by her sudden outrage, she realizes immediately what's going on. Even though her doppelganger is dressed more modestly than she is, makes no overtly romantic or sexual remarks, and (being a hologram) gives off no detectable emotions.

 

[DonIago]

Well, knowing someone is smitten with you is a bit different from knowing they're smitten enough with you that they'll create a holographic reproduction of you. Troi likely knew Barclay was attracted to her ("smitten" seems a bit strong), but didn't think he'd act on his emotions in an unethical manner.

 

[CuriousCaitian]

The impression I got was that Troi knew, but for whatever reason chose not to acknowledge it; possibly she thought, with him being so anxiety-ridden, bringing it up might do more harm than good. The Goddess, however, was pretty much impossible to ignore, and while not sexualised, certainly wasn't flattering, either.

The TNG Guide was fascinating reading. With regard to Troi, a fair amount of what we've discussed is actually there in one form or another, albeit undermined by crass objectification, but little of it appeared on screen. The more I learn about Roddenberry, the clearer it becomes he was as much a reason for that as the erratic writing.

If we think we've said all we can about the good counsellor, let me know, and I'll tee up the next sacrificial victi...I mean, subject for discussion.

 

[DonIago]

Can we open a betting pool on who the next subject will be?

 

[Oddish]

Assuming main cast characters...
Guinan: 1000-1
Picard: 500-1
Data: 500-1
Worf: 25-1
Beverly: 20-1
Riker: 15-1
Pulaski: 10-1
Tasha: 8-1
Geordi: 5-1
Wesley: Even

 

[DonIago]

I'd put Barclay at 3-1.

 

[Oddish]

Adjust Wes to 2-1, Geordi to 6-1, and Tasha to 10-1 to compensate.

 

[at Quark's]

Yes that's what they claimed "full telepathy is hard man"

But...it was always complete and utter BS/laziness. There's enough fiction that features fully telepathic characters in very effective ways.

Read my third post in this thread for some ideas on what to do with a fully telepathic Troi:

I suppose all telepaths would really need for that is a perceptual filter -- same way we don't get mad in a crowded room full of people talking to one another, but just pick out 'our' conversation.

Oh, and I think O' Brien would come in at even lower odds than Guinan (that is, as long as we're talking about his character, not what he's doing in that transporter room all day).

 

[CuriousCaitian]

Not entirely sure I'd agree with those odds. :-p

For clarification, I'm trying to focus on characters that wide consensus considers problematic. Troi and our second subject are clear examples, but others less so. For example, I like Geordi, he's one of my favourite characters, but if the consensus is he's problematic - and I'll freely admit he's not exactly overflowing with character traits - then he's eligible for examination.

In contrast, someone like Worf, who I find problematic, but I believe most people don't, most likely wouldn't be. This is why I asked for your suggestions!

Onto subject two, a young man most of you would apparently not hesitate to flush out of an airlock at the first opportunity, Acting Ensign Wesley Crusher.

While I don't share such strong feelings regarding him, I certainly struggle to find anything especially likeable about him. I can only think of one decent - Evolution - and two partly-decent - The Dauphin and The First Duty - episodes that focus on him, while in contrast, he's key to at least two heavily flawed ones - Datalore and The Game - and one so legendarily awful I dare not speak its name.

Unlike Troi, I'm honestly not sure he was a good idea in the first place, especially if, as suggested by some, he was little more than an idealised Roddenberry self-insert. For some reason, young prodigies rarely ever seem to work out in TV - see also Adric in Doctor Who - and he was no exception. Would more humility or self-doubt and less cliche teen pettishness - for want of a better word - have helped? Unsure. Not having such a dreadful episode so early on might have.

As to how he could he been done better, beyond greatly improved writing, I struggle for suggestions other than those already noted. Your challenge, therefore, should you choose to accept it: find a way to make Wesley a better character, or at the very least a less punchable one.

And again, thanks for your contributions; delighted with how this thread is going so far!

 

[Oddish]

When Wesley was treated as a teenager, or at most a trainee, I found him unobjectionable. When he was saving the ship with his genius and heroics, not so much. There are plenty of teen empowerment stories for teens and preteens (like Hunger Games, Catnip or whatever her name is brings down tyranny and restores freedom yadda yadda yadda). Regular Star Trek need not be one of them. Prodigy, targeted at a specific demographic (though of course we're going to watch it too because of Kathryn Janeway), can do it all it wants.

A classic example of Wesley done right, early on, is "When the Bough Breaks". Wesley didn't come up with a genius solution to save the ship. He simply organized the kids to resist their captivity. Nothing wrong with that.

 

[Orphalesion]

I think one of the problems about Wesley is also how isolated he was as a character; he never had friends or a girlfriend (or boyfriend for that matter)
I like the idea of showing the civilians on the ship, and I think the presence of a character like Lal for example could have done good for Wesley since he would have had other teens to interact with and relate to.

Even Jake (who was vastly better done than Wesley) had Nog to hang out with.
Give Wesley one or two secondary characters like that and they could have been our eyes into the civillian life on board the Enterprise.
Of course considering that the show was made int he 1980s and that they would have been adolescents you get the danger of all their storylines devolving into PSAs ("Tonight on a Very Special Episode of Star Trek: The Next Generation... Can Wesley help his friend defeat his addiction to Klingon crack?" )

Or you could go the other route and reduce him to a secondary character who is only important in the way Dr.Crusher and Picard relate to him as his mother and pseudo-father.
Interestingly early on there was an idea that he would share a sort of a brother-sister bond with Tasha. That would have been interesting to see, really and could have done both characters a lot of good.
Maybe a friendship between Tasha and Wesley could have been explored, maybe with some undercurrent that Tasha kinda uses that friendship to make up for her own terrible adolescence on Mad Max World.