Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 3x01 - "That Hope Is You, Part 1"

[Muji]

Same answer: It was the security personell of the station.

I don't know if they are or if they are not, but I'm not debating that. Being security personnel doesn't give you the right to trap somebody, attempt to steal their stuff, then execute them. So, with that in mind... what I said earlier.

And I never wrote that she should let herself get killed.

Nor did I accuse you of doing that, I asked a question.

Anyway, I think this subject has probably come to a natural end. I was just rebuffing what I see as unjust criticism.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Sometimes a spade is a spade as they say.

Awkward choice of aphorism.

 

[MisterD]

Considering those same guards casually executed Cosmo on the spot for letting his cargo be stolen by Book, I'd say they were probably operating on about the same kind of authority as the folks who "governed" Tortuga were.

And if it was North Korea, thats not the point I wanted to make. The point is was not kidnapped. She went to the station, somehow violated security protocol, and was take into custody.

If the laws of the station hold up to anybodys standarts was never adressed by me.

 

[Tuskin38]

Being security personnel doesn't give you the right to trap somebody,

They took her into custody, they didn’t ‘trap’ her.

 

[Jadeb]

Not really. It's a pretty extreme interpretation that places Black characters in a box. Which I think is something those of African descent in America and elsewhere would object to.

Book having "special powers" is a problem how? Other characters get to be "special" but not a Black man?

There is a stock trope, the magical Black man.

It’s a complicated topic. I certainly don’t think Black characters should be forbidden from being anything. But, at the same time, it’s worth considering the portrayal, I think. Particularly with a progressive show like Trek. These tropes are perpetuated when they aren’t considered and challenged. By thinking about them, we become aware of how prevalent they are.

Again, I don’t think there was ill intent here. But the ep made some choices I would not have expected from Trek.

 

[Nerys Myk]

And if it was North Korea, thats not the point I wanted to make. The point is was not kidnapped. She went to the station, somehow violated security protocol, and was take into custody.

If the laws of the station hold up to anybodys standarts was never adressed by me.

Which is kind of the point of the discussion. Do we roll over and go along with the "authorities" no matter what? How far do we go in resisting the authorities, especially if those authorities might (are?) in the wrong? Even in TOS Kirk and the gang were often up against the authorities of the planet of the week. They would fight, sabotage and resist those authorities. Which I guess is keeping with the ideas of that time. Have we change that much since?

 

[MisterD]

Nor did I accuse you of doing that, I asked a question.

Oh come on. This question is completely redundant if its not a rethorical or suggestive one. I don't think I want to continue this...

 

[SJGardner]

And if it was North Korea, thats not the point I wanted to make. The point is was not kidnapped. She went to the station, somehow violated security protocol, and was take into custody.

If the laws of the station hold up to anybodys standarts was never adressed by me.

And my implication was that based on what she saw on that station, she had no reason at all to assume that they were under any lawful authority. The guards literally allowed them in after Book showed them her equipment and alluded to their value, after which someone listening to the conversation immediately chimed in and ordered them to let her in. I wouldn't fault her for not believing this was any legally operating establishment.

 

[Jadeb]

And my implication was that based on what she saw on that station, she had no reason at all to assume that they were under any lawful authority. The guards literally allowed them in after Book showed them her equipment and alluded to their value, after which someone listening to the conversation immediately chimed in and ordered them to let her in. I wouldn't fault her for not believing this was any legally operating establishment.

Regardless of where they drew their authority, the dilithium was not hers to take.

 

[MisterD]

Which is kind of the point of the discussion. Do we roll over and go along with the "authorities" no matter what? How far do we go in resisting the authorities, especially if those authorities might (are?) in the wrong? Even in TOS Kirk and the gang were often up against the authorities of the planet of the week. They would fight, sabotage and resist those authorities. Which I guess is keeping with the ideas of that time. Have we change that much since?

Well...thats completely not the point I wanted to make. I think you projected a whole lotta stuff into my comment I never wanted to adress.

 

[Nerys Myk]

There is a stock trope, the magical Black man.

I'm familiar, but I don't think Book qualifies.

These Black characters, often referred to as "magical Negroes," generally focus their abilities toward assisting their White lead counterparts.

Unless there's something about Michael we don't know.

Again, I don’t think there was ill intent here. But the ep made some choices I would not have expected from Trek.

Trek's been making bad racial and gender choices since day one. It's not new for the franchise. That said, what was seen "That Hope Is You" isn't among of them.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Well...thats completely not the point I wanted to make. I think you projected a whole lotta stuff into my comment I never wanted to adress.

I referring to the entire course of the conversation, which your posts are just a part of.

 

[Muji]

They took her into custody, they didn’t ‘trap’ her.

Wow. Not sure what I can say then. If you don't think these shots constitute a trap, we have very different views on it.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Wow. Not sure what I can say then. If you don't think these shots constitute a trap, we have very different views on it.

To be fair, it was Book who sprung the trap.

 

[Isaac Lawrence]

Surely you realize those are common and unfortunate stereotypes. You do, don’t you? It’s OK to like the show and discuss these things. I’m not implying motive, but these tropes are perpetuated when people don’t think about them.

They're not criminals though, they're the heroes.

And if this was anyone's first time watching the series they would have seen them as the heroes of the episode. I don't see how they could see it any other way. Black characters or not.

And writing them as perfect with no faults would be kind of boring.

"Woke" is a buzzword cooked up within the last few years to measure how 'aware' or 'sensitive' a person is.

The implication is, those who aren't 'woke' are 'asleep'.

Needless to say, it's controversial. I personally think the word "woke" (NOT the concept behind it, just the actual word) is arrogant and judgmental. But YMMV.

Yeah, I understand that aspect, I just don't understand how it applies to Star Trek or this series.

They always treated Michael Burnham as a character, a character that just happens to be black. And true, they designed the show specifically around a black female character, and all credit to them because I don't see how they could have handled it any better.

And this show is a positive representation of being "woke," I think. Very positive, and very strong.

And I'm getting far afield, but I understand what you're saying. Thanks.

 

[Noname Given]

There is a stock trope, the magical Black man.

It’s a complicated topic. I certainly don’t think Black characters should be forbidden from being anything. But, at the same time, it’s worth considering the portrayal, I think. Particularly with a progressive show like Trek. These tropes are perpetuated when they aren’t considered and challenged. By thinking about them, we become aware of how prevalent they are.

Again, I don’t think there was ill intent here. But the ep made some choices I would not have expected from Trek.

Oh please if Booker had been caucasian; you'd probably be arguing that in this case Star Trek was now perpetuating the: White Savior Trope

My point? I think you're just looking for something to complain about. Honestly, The fact both characters were non-white signifies nothing. The type of things they were doing in this Star Trek episode, were things other Star Trek characters have done. So Booker is a hybrid or has some special species, or power from a genetic mutation or something else. He's not the first Star Trek character to have something like this and he won't be the last.

 

[Muji]

To be fair, it was Book who sprung the trap.

On behalf of...

 

[Jadeb]

I'm familiar, but I don't think Book qualifies.
Unless there's something about Michael we don't know.
Trek's been making bad racial and gender choices since day one. It's not new for the franchise. That said, what was seen "That Hope Is You" isn't among of them.

The fact that Book has magic powers wouldn’t have made me think twice, had it not been for the other choices made in the episode. It’s the sum of its parts.

TBH, I think the issue isn’t just the ep’s sensitivity to its Black characters but the show’s taste for violence and ugliness in general. I would not have cared for the killing spree regardless of which Discovery crew member was doing the killing.

 

[Uhura's Song]

Not going to slog through all 45 pages, but I feel comfortable with my 6. Did not hate it, did not love it. And the more I think about it, I tend to like it a tad less.

Liked: The scenery and landscapes. The fact that Book is an animal lover. The fact we have diverse alien species represented.

Meh. The comedy. The shootout scenes are approaching Star Wars level bad shooting by the bad guys. Burnham being remakarably uninquisitive with the Star Fleet guy (gotta preserve that for big reveals later!).

Boo. The plot armor. Surviving hitting a ship. Didn't they go to great lengths to avoid that happening in the last episode because it would kill her?

Did we get an answer on Book's Aragorn Ranger powers or glowing forehead? Will have to rewath that part.

Did anyone else get a slight BSG vibe from the scene with the Star Fleet guy sitting at the desk every day? Loke going to meet the Cylons who never show up? Until Six shows up, of course.

 

[BillJ]

There is a stock trope, the magical Black man.

It’s a complicated topic. I certainly don’t think Black characters should be forbidden from being anything. But, at the same time, it’s worth considering the portrayal, I think. Particularly with a progressive show like Trek. These tropes are perpetuated when they aren’t considered and challenged. By thinking about them, we become aware of how prevalent they are.

Again, I don’t think there was ill intent here. But the ep made some choices I would not have expected from Trek.

I think the most important thing was that the character was well written and acted. At least from my perspective.